CNN Article On Illiteracy In College Hoops

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"The issue was highlighted at UNC two years ago with the exposure of a scandal where students, many of them athletes, were given grades for classes they didn't attend, and where they did nothing more than turn in a single paper. Last month, a North Carolina grand jury indicted a professor at the center of the scandal on fraud charges. He's accused of being paid $12,000 for a class he didn't teach."

"When Willingham worked as a learning specialist for athletes from 2003 to 2010, she admits she took part in cheating, signing her name to forms that said she witnessed no NCAA rules violations when in fact she did. But the NCAA, the college sports organizing body, never interviewed her. Instead, it found no rules had been broken at Chapel Hill."

The system is only fair if every institution gets punished the way Minnesota got punished for doing the things Minnesota was doing.
 

Have a feeling this has been a really big problem for many many years, and as per usual, these schools and the NCAA have swept the problem under the rug for as long as they possibly could. Division 1 sports (at least football and basketball) are completely out of control in terms of their priorities. I've said it before, but the system needs a complete overhaul. It's become laughably pathetic.
 

On the ACT, we found some students scoring in the single digits, when the highest possible score is 36 and the national average is 20. In most cases, the team average ACT reading score was in the high teens.
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How can you expect a kid that scores in the single digits to take a college level class, even mid teens is questionable, they really only have two choices, clean house and make the product less attractive or keep doing as they are, can't really fix it.

Probably should just get rid of any pretense and start paying Basketball and Football players.
 

jovs said:
How can you expect a kid that scores in the single digits to take a college level class, even mid teens is questionable, they really only have two choices, clean house and make the product less attractive or keep doing as they are, can't really fix it.

Probably should just get rid of any pretense and start paying Basketball and Football players.
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Exactly right.
 


jovs said:
How can you expect a kid that scores in the single digits to take a college level class, even mid teens is questionable, they really only have two choices, clean house and make the product less attractive or keep doing as they are, can't really fix it.

Probably should just get rid of any pretense and start paying Basketball and Football players.
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Or maybe, just maybe, they should taking school (both high school and college) more seriously?
 

I really don't think this is a problem limited to athletes. There's plenty of non-athletes that have no business being in college. Once they realize they're not in high school and they are wasting their own time and money the problem starts to sort itself out.
 

AO54 said:
I really don't think this is a problem limited to athletes. There's plenty of non-athletes that have no business being in college. Once they realize they're not in high school and they are wasting their own time and money the problem starts to sort itself out.
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Perhaps you're correct. Would be interesting to see comparative acceptance standards across the board. Having said that, to pretend that schools don't bend over backwards to get some athletes into school is ridiculous.
 

I'm afraid this is one of those things that we just kinda' have to plug our noses. Kids that have no business being accepted at colleges and universities are being accepted every day simply because they can throw a 25-yard out or drain a 25-foot three-pointer. There's going to be a seedy, slimy side to major college basketball and football no matter what changes are made, including paying the players. ... that will just lead to other headaches. Schools can always find a way to manipulate the gray areas (and then some).

Now let's beat Penn State.
 



AO54 said:
I really don't think this is a problem limited to athletes. There's plenty of non-athletes that have no business being in college. Once they realize they're not in high school and they are wasting their own time and money the problem starts to sort itself out.
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I agree with this. Even at a time when entrance requirements are getting more strict due to demand (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/30/college-admissions-rates-_n_842807.html), some prestigious schools still review applications based on a number of different rubrics, not just test scores (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/etc/ucb.html). My guess is that the "holistic" application review process is part of what allows people to get into college that shouldn't.

When I was completing my bachelor's at the University of Hartford, there were a number of students that couldn't handle the rigors of college writing. One guy from NYC was the first person in his family to get accepted to college, they were all so proud of him. Then he asked me to help him with a paper and I found there wasn't any punctuation, he had little to no understanding of grammar, and he couldn't type at all! He was hand writing all of his assignments at about a 6th grade level. He resorted to buying papers; no surprise, he didn't make it beyond his first semester.

BTW, no class ever kicked my ass more than freshman writing at the U, which was a requirement for everyone. If someone can't read at a sufficient level they would be exposed in that class.
 

SelectionSunday said:
I'm afraid this is one of those things that we just kinda' have to plug our noses. Kids that have no business being accepted at colleges and universities are being accepted every day simply because they can throw a 25-yard out or drain a 25-foot three-pointer. There's going to be a seedy, slimy side to major college basketball and football no matter what changes are made, including paying the players. ... that will just lead to other headaches. Schools can always find a way to manipulate the gray areas (and then some).

Now let's beat Penn State.
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You're right, Selection, but this should start some conversation about what goes on before these kids get to college. The kids have been cheated long before they get to UNC. It's not just college sports that stink, but youth sports systems that seekids as future college players instead of just kids looking to learn some life skills and play a game. Colleges should not be accepting players who hae no business in college, but the problem starts long before they get to college.

I am torn because I know some of this is about kids not giving a rip about school with no consequences, but also a system that doesn't care about them, either. Plenty of shared fault.
 

My solution in order to get student-athletes that can participate academically in college? If you don't score a 16 or higher on your ACT, you don't get to play in collegiate athletics. The kids will either have to take learning somewhat seriously (and learning resources are available to these kids nowadays), or they can't attend college. Trust me, even for the least intelligent of high schoolers (without disabilities), with a little hard work and preparation, ALL would be able to score a 16. It's only fair to the rest of the high-schoolers trying to attend college.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/07/us/ncaa-athletes-reading-scores/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Wow, this makes the problem sound a lot worse than I thought.
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After reading this article the other day, I became very angry. Whether it's the corruption of the NCAA, the favoritism and "looking the other way" for certain schools, or the fact these kids are even allowed to advance from grade to grade in elementary and high school, there is much here to be angry, dejected and disappointed about. I even started thinking about whether I wanted to continue being a fan of collegiate sports. I mean, what's the point? The "playing field" is skewed and many of these kids aren't really student-athletes.

A few moments later I had another thought that I want to share here and about which I'd like your feedback. Even if a young man or woman is unable to handle college, let alone read or write, are there still compelling reasons to allow him or her into school and to play a collegiate sport? For example, will it benefit the individual to at least be in an academic setting? Is it highly likely that something positive will rub off on him or her? Will it benefit the individual to meet and socialize with new people from different walks of life? Will it benefit the individual to at least work a little bit on academics even if it's at an elementary level? Will it benefit the individual to live in a better community than he or she comes from? Will it benefit the individual to learn productive life lessons from the coaches, assistants, tutors and teammates? Will it benefit the individual to be around people who are intelligent, articulate, academically motivated, career motivated?

In other words, if we set aside our personal feelings about this, is the individual and society as a whole better off by allowing the individual into a university and to play Division I athletics as opposed to denying him or her the opportunity? Is it a "net- positive" for society or not? Very curious what people think.
 



BreakTheGopherCurse said:
After reading this article the other day, I became very angry. Whether it's the corruption of the NCAA, the favoritism and "looking the other way" for certain schools, or the fact these kids are even allowed to advance from grade to grade in elementary and high school, there is much here to be angry, dejected and disappointed about. I even started thinking about whether I wanted to continue being a fan of collegiate sports. I mean, what's the point? The "playing field" is skewed and many of these kids aren't really student-athletes.

A few moments later I had another thought that I want to share here and about which I'd like your feedback. Even if a young man or woman is unable to handle college, let alone read or write, are there still compelling reasons to allow him or her into school and to play a collegiate sport? For example, will it benefit the individual to at least be in an academic setting? Is it highly likely that something positive will rub off on him or her? Will it benefit the individual to meet and socialize with new people from different walks of life? Will it benefit the individual to at least work a little bit on academics even if it's at an elementary level? Will it benefit the individual to live in a better community than he or she comes from? Will it benefit the individual to learn productive life lessons from the coaches, assistants, tutors and teammates? Will it benefit the individual to be around people who are intelligent, articulate, academically motivated, career motivated?

In other words, if we set aside our personal feelings about this, is the individual and society as a whole better off by allowing the individual into a university and to play Division I athletics as opposed to denying him or her the opportunity? Is it a "net- positive" for society or not? Very curious what people think.
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No way. People get denied from unc who score a 30 on the ACT. You're rewarding someone for being a collegiate athlete but punishing others for being scholars. Completely not fair
 

SelectionSunday said:
I'm afraid this is one of those things that we just kinda' have to plug our noses. Kids that have no business being accepted at colleges and universities are being accepted every day simply because they can throw a 25-yard out or drain a 25-foot three-pointer. There's going to be a seedy, slimy side to major college basketball and football no matter what changes are made, including paying the players. ... that will just lead to other headaches. Schools can always find a way to manipulate the gray areas (and then some).

Now let's beat Penn State.
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What you say is accurate, I beleive.

What is troubling to me - and I have stated it for decades - is the blatant disregard for the cheating at some schools and 180 degree opposite at other schools. See MN Ganglegate vs UNC or Will Avery at Duke.

We as fans expect to complete against "the best". Yet the oversight - read NCAA - make it nearly impossible as they make decisions on punishment.

Be delusional all you want - those decisions do and have impacted results on the field and court for decades.

And some still cant come to grips with these facts.
 

BarnBurner said:
What you say is accurate, I beleive.

What is troubling to me - and I have stated it for decades - is the blatant disregard for the cheating at some schools and 180 degree opposite at other schools. See MN Ganglegate vs UNC or Will Avery at Duke.

We as fans expect to complete against "the best". Yet the oversight - read NCAA - make it nearly impossible as they make decisions on punishment.

Be delusional all you want - those decisions do and have impacted results on the field and court for decades.

And some still cant come to grips with these facts.
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I couldn't have said it better. You will never see the NCAA come down on a helmet school or a blue blood for academic anything unless it's completely unavoidable and obvious. And make no mistake, if the NCAA could have ignored the goings on at Penn State, they would have preferred to let it go.
 

AO54 said:
I really don't think this is a problem limited to athletes. There's plenty of non-athletes that have no business being in college. Once they realize they're not in high school and they are wasting their own time and money the problem starts to sort itself out.
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This is spot on. Students today study far less than their parents did when they went to college. The critical thinking skills are lacking in the entire generation. Teachers years ago used to be the brightest women (they went into nursing or teaching) then the feminist revolution made other opportunities available for women and teaching started attracting many from the bottom quadrant of the population. How do they survive without getting fired? The teacher's union and grade inflation. No one wants to fire the teacher that gave their kid an A. The AVERAGE grade at my local high school is 4.0 (on a 4.0 scale with weighted grades). So students going to college hadn't been challenged by the sharpest minds. Then the U.S. government decided to guarantee student loans. Like the mortgage crisis…all of a sudden anyone could get a big big loan to go to school. What happened? The cost of college rose faster than healthcare where now it costs nearly $250,000 to go to private school and about half that to go to public school (depending on your state). All of a sudden the dorms are fancy, the food is good and the buildings are lights out sweet. Why? Because money is like a drug and the schools have become completely addicted to it. Now many professors teach ONLY ONE CLASS. They used to teach many more in the 50s and 60s. This is all paid with incredibly high tuition. They need students to keep paying so what do they do? Reduce standards. The article below tells of the latest study that shows 45% of the students learn nothing in the first 2 years. Other studies show that students now study far, far fewer hours than their parents did. Schools are run like a business trying to make money not trying to educate kids. That's why when you get a coach like Coach Kill, you want to hold on to him because he actually cares about the students he coaches.

http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/17/academically-adrift/?_r=0
 

Did the students fail themselves in high school? What was the parental support? Did the high schools fail? How many resources should people commit if the kid doesnt try and the home isn't a place where you can prosper?

In the end I would love if everyone who plays college sports would get a quality education and a great job, if they cannot make it professionally, but this isnt going to happen for some of the reasons above. In the end I am watching a guy play ball and I am not interested in how he does math. I wish there was an easy answer. I also wish the NCAA didn't favor certain schools but that's not going to happen either.
 

The problem is not with teachers, and it doesn't begin with colleges, it begins much earlier. Athletes get passed along because teachers get fired when they fail the star athlete. When the students feel they are untouchable, they become unteachable. It doesn't the student any favors to pass them along. I don't believe they are stupid, they just haven't had to learn anything. Being a college student without having a real education is like attempting to play basketball without having played. If colleges tightened up admissions requirements, then high schools might be less inclined to pass athletes along when they don't deserve it.
 

RodentRampage said:
The problem is not with teachers, and it doesn't begin with colleges, it begins much earlier. Athletes get passed along because teachers get fired when they fail the star athlete. When the students feel they are untouchable, they become unteachable. It doesn't the student any favors to pass them along. I don't believe they are stupid, they just haven't had to learn anything. Being a college student without having a real education is like attempting to play basketball without having played. If colleges tightened up admissions requirements, then high schools might be less inclined to pass athletes along when they don't deserve it.
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Your description may be apt for some athletes. For others, it is simply asking them to do something they cannot do, in order to continue playing sports. One of my relatives is a child with some learning disabilities. He gets all of the tutoring help in the world, and tries really hard. He could probably stay eligible for high school sports, but I don't think there's a realistic way he would legitimately make it through 4 years at a high-level college like the University of Minnesota or any big ten school, particularly if you added in all of the other time demands on athletes.

College is not for everyone. The "problem" is that the athletic system in some sports (namely football and basketball) is illogically tied to going to college, when it shouldn't be. The University of Chicago, like European universities and club teams, probably got it right long ago.
 

Bad Gopher said:
You will never see the NCAA come down on a helmet school or a blue blood for academic anything unless it's completely unavoidable and obvious.
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Like how they banned UConn from the postseason?

Bad Gopher said:
And make no mistake, if the NCAA could have ignored the goings on at Penn State, they would have preferred to let it go.
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They should've ignored the goings-on at Penn St., because the NCAA has zero jurisdiction over criminal violations.

Why do people engage in such gymnastics to rationalize away the cheating done by Minnesota over the years? Does anyone deny that it happened? Instead of worrying about how others may or may not be doing a better job of cheating and not getting caught, worry about not cheating at all. An institution can't control the actions of others, but it can maintain its own internal compliance.
 


dpodoll68 said:
Why do people engage in such gymnastics to rationalize away the cheating done by Minnesota over the years?
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I know it's hard for a one trick pony to acknowledge, but nobody's rationalizing anything in this thread. I for one have never complained about our penalties.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I know it's hard for a one trick pony to acknowledge, but nobody's rationalizing anything in this thread. I for one have never complained about our penalties.
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What then is the point of whining about how poor, poor Minnesota is targeted for special punishment by the NCAA?

One trick pony? First people complain that I argue about everything, and now I'm a one trick pony? It can't be both, so which is it?
 

dpodoll68 said:
What then is the point of whining about how poor, poor Minnesota is targeted for special punishment by the NCAA?
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You must know that people don't like it when you twist their words. I certainly don't.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Like how they banned UConn from the postseason?

They couldn't UCONN's APR was too low had to ban them, but it's not like any banters were taken down

They should've ignored the goings-on at Penn St., because the NCAA has zero jurisdiction over criminal violations.

Why do people engage in such gymnastics to rationalize away the cheating done by Minnesota over the years? Does anyone deny that it happened? Instead of worrying about how others may or may not be doing a better job of cheating and not getting caught, worry about not cheating at all. An institution can't control the actions of others, but it can maintain its own internal compliance.
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He's not saying that at all and I agree I think the NCAA would've turned the other way if not for the media pressure, if you've paid attention Penn State has gotten the majority of those vacated scholarships back now that it's not a front page story
 

ZTA's original quote:

BarnBurner said:
What is troubling to me - and I have stated it for decades - is the blatant disregard for the cheating at some schools and 180 degree opposite at other schools. See MN Ganglegate vs UNC or Will Avery at Duke.

We as fans expect to complete against "the best". Yet the oversight - read NCAA - make it nearly impossible as they make decisions on punishment.
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Your response:

Bad Gopher said:
I couldn't have said it better.
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Given the above exchange, what reasonable conclusion is one to draw other than you believing poor Minnesota is among those unfortunate schools set aside for special oversight and punishment?
 

jovs said:
How can you expect a kid that scores in the single digits to take a college level class, even mid teens is questionable, they really only have two choices, clean house and make the product less attractive or keep doing as they are, can't really fix it.

Probably should just get rid of any pretense and start paying Basketball and Football players.
Click to expand...

Sure, solve the problem by eliminating standards. That seldom works well, usually creating a bigger problem no one anticipates. I don't know how many of us are still left out here, but we used to think the best product was created by competition amongst student athletes. Pay 'em off and it's just pro sports. You know, what's next, our high school product would be a lot better if we abandon eligibility standards and front the kids some walking around money?
 

My personal solution: create a dual track for college sports.

If a player wants to enroll as a student and also play sports, great. But for athletes who have no desire (or ability) to do college-level athletic work, and are hoping to pursue a career in athletics, then you have a separate track. Athletes sign a contract with a college. The athlete receives a stipend equal to the cost of an athletic scholarship. In return, the athlete agrees to a code of conduct, and has the option to take basic and/or remedial classes and "life skills" classes - basics on handling money, etc. Any violations of the code of conduct (drugs, DWI's, etc) and the athlete loses their stipend and may no longer compete in athletics.

I know some would say this is admitting defeat. I look at it as accepting reality. Drop the pretense of the "student-athlete" and eliminate the need/incentive for schools to cheat to keep players eligible.

In a perfect world, there would be a minor-league system for FB or Basketball equivalent to what baseball and hockey have. But, until that day, like it or not, college athletic programs are the minor-league system.

And a tongue-in-cheek thought - if the TV rights fees keep going up, maybe ESPN could run its own minor-league system for FB and basketball - think of all the programming it would provide.
 

The reality is that college basketball is an extracurricular activity for college students. Accepting reality would be insisting on some sort of academic standards. It's also a reality that some players don't care a bit about college, however, that reality does not obligate universities. Just like with baseball, there should be a minor league for players who either don't want to go to college or who are not cut out for it. It's not colleges' fault if their isn't a minor league.
 

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