Reusse 1500 Column: Close, but Kill's third season will not equal Mason's

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BleedGopher

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per Reusse:

As for the Big Ten, these Gophers had four nice wins - Nebraska and Penn State at home, and roadies at Northwestern and Indiana. They opened with a couple of clunkers, Iowa and at Michigan, and closed with losses to superior teams, Wisconsin and Michigan State.

My suggestion in print after the Wisconsin loss at TCF Bank Stadium was that Kill's Gophers had the physical part of Big Ten football figured out, and now had to take care of the other half of the formula: acquiring playmakers.

That was more evident after a stout defensive effort only could keep things close in a14-3 loss in East Lansing. When Big Ten play was over, the Gophers were a middling 4-4 and didn't have a touchdown in the last 10 quarters.

Mason's Gophers of 1999 didn't encounter such an issue. They were 2-3 in conference play before going to Penn State. The wins were at Northwestern and Illinois. The losses were to Wisconsin (20-17) and Ron Dayne's Rose Bowl winners, to a mediocre Ohio State (20-17) team and to Purdue (33-28) and quarterback Drew Brees.

The upset at Penn State was followed by a 44-20 thumping of Indiana and a 25-21 win over a bad Iowa team.

At the end of the regular season, Mason's Gophers were 5-3 in the Big Ten, 8-3 overall and ranked No. 12 in the Associated Press poll. They tied for fourth in the Big Ten, but dropped to sixth in the pecking order for bowl games. That happened when Purdue and Brees leaped them and got the Outback Bowl.

The Gophers still wound up with a strong opponent, Oregon, in the Sun Bowl - a game with tradition, even if it was located in El Paso. The Gophers lost 24-20 to a Ducks' team that had Joey Harrington at quarterback and Rueben Droughns as the ace running back.

The 1999 Gophers finished rated No. 18 in the country. No matter where, when or what happens in this year's bowl game, the 2013 Gophers won't finish that high in Kill's third season.

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/PJR_Close_but_Kills_third_season_wont_equal_Masons120213

Go Gophers!!
 

It's true that the 1999 team was better than the 2013 team, but that doesn't negate what the team has done this year. If the 2014 team performs better than the 2000 team, will he comment on that?
 

Wow, if Mason had won a couple of those close ones (Wisconsin, Ohio State and Purdue), he would probably still be coaching today.
 

Am I reading this right that we finished 12th in the nation that year, but were sixth in the Big Ten pecking order for bowls? Yikes.
 

But hopefully we finish a lot better than Mason's 4th-6th seasons where he 9-15 in the conference.
 


BarnBoy said:
Am I reading this right that we finished 12th in the nation that year, but were sixth in the Big Ten pecking order for bowls? Yikes.
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Once again, I'm not sure where Reusse is pulling his information. We finished tied for 4th in the Big Ten with PSU at 5-3 (Illinois/Purdue were 6th at 4-4), and we beat both that season. Thus, we held the tiebreaker for conference record over PSU and for overall record over Illinois. If he's looking at overall record, after the regular season, PSU was 9-3 (4th), we were 8-3 (5th), and Illinois/Purdue were 7-4 (T-6th). If going by conference record, we were 4th, and if going by overall record, we were 5th, though PSU did play one more game. It's as if he's just making stuff up and banking on no one calling him out on it.

Unless he's just saying that we got picked 6th in order, in which case ignore everything I just said.
 

GophersInIowa said:
But hopefully we finish a lot better than Mason's 4th-6th seasons where he 9-15 in the conference.
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The point I was going to make. I think Kill is laying a stronger foundation that will lead to more consistent performance over the long run. Please don't take this as a slap at Mason, who was a good coach.
 

dpodoll68 said:
Once again, I'm not sure where Reusse is pulling his information. We finished tied for 4th in the Big Ten with PSU at 5-3 (Illinois/Purdue were 6th at 4-4), and we beat both that season. Thus, we held the tiebreaker for conference record over PSU and for overall record over Illinois. If he's looking at overall record, after the regular season, PSU was 9-3 (4th), we were 8-3 (5th), and Illinois/Purdue were 7-4 (T-6th). If going by conference record, we were 4th, and if going by overall record, we were 5th, though PSU did play one more game. It's as if he's just making stuff up and banking on no one calling him out on it.

Unless he's just saying that we got picked 6th in order, in which case ignore everything I just said.
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I think that is what he is saying. From the article: "They tied for fourth in the Big Ten, but dropped to sixth in the pecking order for bowl games."
 

GophersInIowa said:
But hopefully we finish a lot better than Mason's 4th-6th seasons where he 9-15 in the conference.
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Yes, by ALL means I hope that we will finish a lot better than Mason's 4th-6th seasons during Coach Kill's 4th-6th seasons. And, we have th precise tools in place to very accurately measure and compare. We have the CONFERENCE won-loss records, more commonly known as the Conference Stadings to keep us ALL honest. The Big Ten (B1G) is considered to be "down" right now by some accounts. And, we now have TCF BANK STADIUM to help my Golden Gopher Football Team win Conference games. Of course, an additional Conference game will be added to the schedule. That never makes the task easier, but, it also provides "upside" potential IF that extra game can be a win. So, I will "push forward" with my Golden Gopher Football Program, hope for the VERY best and count the Conference Wins as they happen! Since this IS a program with a past...a present...AND...a future it will be an exciting and incredibly interesting time to be a Big Ten Football Fan. (This B1G stuff just doesn't seem right at all though. NEVER lose that BIG TEN brand name and trade mark. My Gophers will ALWAYS be part of the BIG TEN to me!) The Big Ten NEEDS to recall it's history and now move towards the future with a few new teams...but that OLD BIG TEN Spirit, Tradition AND ATTITUDE. The s.e.c. remains the s.e.c. regardless of their numbers and configurations. Stay BIG TEN, BIG TEN! Run the ball and stop the run Golden Gophers! NEVER give up the BIG TEN name and identity. Let's go BOWLING, Golden Gophers! Represent the BIG TEN CONFERENCE well in this 2013 bowl season!
 




Tend to agree with Reusse here (which is rare for me) because honestly, Mason's third team was pretty darn good imo. However, I don't hold that as an indictment of the job Kill and his staff have done this year. They've done an excellent job his year. But to me, this isn't about comparisons with past coaches and teams. Rather, it was about building a solid foundation for continued improvement in the future. And it seems Kill and his team have done that very well this season.
 

as I recall we were up 20-17 late in that game and we lost it late - sound familar??? this is only based on memory but do I recall a pass play over Tyrone Carterfor the winning score?? - TC was great player though
 

MRJ said:
Tend to agree with Reusse here (which is rare for me) because honestly, Mason's third team was pretty darn good imo. However, I don't hold that as an indictment of the job Kill and his staff have done this year. They've done an excellent job his year. But to me, this isn't about comparisons with past coaches and teams. Rather, it was about building a solid foundation for continued improvement in the future. And it seems Kill and his team have done that very well this season.
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In no way was this article a shot at the current team just comparing the two coaches third seasons because in both cases the team surprised in year three. Overall though the 1999 season was more impressive than the 2013 season, doesn't take anything away from this year but that 1999 team had a chance to be truly special and just fell a tiny bit short.
 



When comparing performance relative to talent levels, this year's squad vastly outperformed 1999. I've mentioned this many times here, but the 1999 squad had 14 future NFL players and still managed to lose 4 games. Can anyone find 14 future NFLers on this year's roster?
 

MNVCGUY said:
In no way was this article a shot at the current team just comparing the two coaches third seasons because in both cases the team surprised in year three. Overall though the 1999 season was more impressive than the 2013 season, doesn't take anything away from this year but that 1999 team had a chance to be truly special and just fell a tiny bit short.
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I think he's right on the surface. Though, I question whether it's a fair comparison. I'm not saying Coach Mason inherited a great program, but I don't think he took over a program that was as vacant on depth and talent at so many key positions, as Kill and his staff did.
 

holereader said:
as I recall we were up 20-17 late in that game and we lost it late - sound familar??? this is only based on memory but do I recall a pass play over Tyrone Carterfor the winning score?? - TC was great player though
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Yes it was. Oregon scored with less than a minute to go. In fact they announced a Gopher as the MVP, the Gophers may have swept the awards, because they made them before the Ducks got that last TD.
 

I think a better comparison to Kill's 1st three years is Alvarez. In his 1st season (1990), he was just trying to survive ala Kill's 2011 season. During his next two seasons, the Badgers were 5 - 6 with the defense improving each season and the offense struggling to score. They lost a bunch of low scoring defensive struggles (sound familiar?).

In Alvarez's 4th season, the offense finally arrived and they go to the Rose Bowl. I know this is dreaming, but next year, our top receivers shouldn't all be freshmen, so there is hope.
 

EE_Gopher said:
I think a better comparison to Kill's 1st three years is Alvarez. In his 1st season (1990), he was just trying to survive ala Kill's 2011 season. During his next two seasons, the Badgers were 5 - 6 with the defense improving each season and the offense struggling to score. They lost a bunch of low scoring defensive struggles (sound familiar?).

In Alvarez's 4th season, the offense finally arrived and they go to the Rose Bowl. I know this is dreaming, but next year, our top receivers shouldn't all be freshmen, so there is hope.
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The success this season has been all gravy. It's been mentioned on here and Kill has mentioned that he'd like 1 more recruiting class before the team is where he'd like it. I think the 4th year is going to be fun. Tough schedule though when you play @Michigan and still end with Iowa, Ohio State, @Nebraska, @Wisconsin. There's a chance to play better but have a similar or worse record - or maybe we just pound them all!

I know I'm dreaming, but I'd love the open of the B1G season 1-0 by beating Michigan. Then we have 3 winnable games - Northwestern, Purdue, @Illinois. Imagine being 4-0 in conference before playing Iowa at home for Floyd?!
 

Studwell55 said:
Pat's right. He usually is, if you read closely.
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If you read your post closely it doesn't prove at all whether Pat is right or not. The only thing it says is that you generally agree with Pat, nothing more and nothing less.:rolleyes:
 

no - when pat has nothing to write about he gets out the history books and recites past scoes - it fill his print space pretty easily - he does this uite often - annoys the hell out of me - but hat else is new - what can i say I have teen agers
 

i hate these stupid comparisons but let's be real about this. the gophers this year were picked to go 3-9 to 5-7 with one B10 win. they surpassed that by quite the margin by beating NW. 24 Nebraska, Indiana, and PSU while losing to Iowa, 19 Michigan, 19 Wisconsin, and 11 MSU. the 1999 team beat a 3-8 NW, an Illini team that finished 8=4, a 10-3 PSU team, a 4-7 Indy team, and a 1-10 Iowa team. They had really one highlight win with all the talent that was on that team. This year's team isn't magical because of the fact that they came in with talent and did just fine. Yeah we finished 18th, but that was in a time when the B10 was the premier conference in voters eyes (I mean christ look at Wisky and MSU getting absolutely NO LOVE this year and 3 10=2 B10 teams in the top 7 from 99) so that ranking is totally subjective.
this 3rd season given that we show up in the bowl game and maybe even win, will go down as a much greater accomplishment than Mason's to me. This isn't all about past scores and numbers that can be skewed to look fantastic. does it get mentioned that 3 of our 5 wins in 99 were against the bottom 3 in the conference where this year we didn't get to play god awful purdue or illinois? anybody can recite scores, but there's much more that goes into a season
 

Iceland12 said:
Yes it was. Oregon scored with less than a minute to go. In fact they announced a Gopher as the MVP, the Gophers may have swept the awards, because they made them before the Ducks got that last TD.
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Yep. Oregon converted a fourth-and-10 to keep that drive alive. If we stop that play we win the game. It was the first play in a long line of..."if we just stop this play, we win the game" losses under Mason.

Not sure if anyone has ever pointed this stat out before, but check this out:

Glen Mason in Big Ten or bowl games decided by 8 or less points (one-score games): 12-22.

He likes to point out on the radio that "people forget about the close ones we won."

Sorry, Glen. You're a great coach, but you're not coaching here anymore because you couldn't win the close ones.
 

josh087 said:
Yep. Oregon converted a fourth-and-10 to keep that drive alive. If we stop that play we win the game. It was the first play in a long line of..."if we just stop this play, we win the game" losses under Mason.

Not sure if anyone has ever pointed this stat out before, but check this out:

Glen Mason in Big Ten or bowl games decided by 8 or less points (one-score games): 12-22.

He likes to point out on the radio that "people forget about the close ones we won."

Sorry, Glen. You're a great coach, but you're not coaching here anymore because you couldn't win the close ones.
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Now josh, don't shoot your mouth too much trying to trash Mason. It seems as though just last December Coach Kill was in a situation where he made some errors in the final minute or two of that game that was won against Texas Tech that ended up in the bowl LOSS category. That s%it happens josh. I really don't appreciate you people who are not content to just let the Mason era be about the best my Gophers could do during the past 25 or 35 years. In fact, I'd say you people are pretty damn poor sports about it. My Gophers will get by in spite of people who feel this strange need to try to bash anything that was remotely good. You brewballer apologists have ONLY yourselves to blame for that failed brewball experiement that you all backed. How many bowl games did that brewball experiment win?

Hopefully Coach Kill will have a little better luck in the bowl game in 2013 than he had in 2012. I was in the stands in Houston last December. I Like cheering on my Golden Gophers whenever and where ever I can and the ONLY two coaches I will EVER go after were the coaches featured during that failed brewball experiment and lou-freaking-hoax, who did his darndest to destroy Gopher Football the way he bailed for South Bend. Somebody has to contrast you people when you try to dis-some of my favorite Gopher Teams and Players...you know...the guys who played for Coach Mason. You are manufacturing BAD karma for my Gophers josh...
 

dpodoll68 said:
When comparing performance relative to talent levels, this year's squad vastly outperformed 1999. I've mentioned this many times here, but the 1999 squad had 14 future NFL players and still managed to lose 4 games. Can anyone find 14 future NFLers on this year's roster?
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+100

Kill walked into a much worse situation talent wise than Mason
 

imthewalrus said:
Now josh, don't shoot your mouth too much trying to trash Mason. It seems as though just last December Coach Kill was in a situation where he made some errors in the final minute or two of that game that was won against Texas Tech that ended up in the bowl LOSS category. That s%it happens josh. I really don't appreciate you people who are not content to just let the Mason era be about the best my Gophers could do during the past 25 or 35 years. In fact, I'd say you people are pretty damn poor sports about it. My Gophers will get by in spite of people who feel this strange need to try to bash anything that was remotely good. You brewballer apologists have ONLY yourselves to blame for that failed brewball experiement that you all backed. How many bowl games did that brewball experiment win?

Hopefully Coach Kill will have a little better luck in the bowl game in 2013 than he had in 2012. I was in the stands in Houston last December. I Like cheering on my Golden Gophers whenever and where ever I can and the ONLY two coaches I will EVER go after were the coaches featured during that failed brewball experiment and lou-freaking-hoax, who did his darndest to destroy Gopher Football the way he bailed for South Bend. Somebody has to contrast you people when you try to dis-some of my favorite Gopher Teams and Players...you know...the guys who played for Coach Mason. You are manufacturing BAD karma for my Gophers josh...
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Yes Wren, the bowl game last year was rough, and I think a lot of us vented about what we felt were some bad decisions made at the end of the game. The problem is not that Mason lost a few close ones, it is that he didn't change anything and get it fixed. This year, Kill is 2-0 in one-score B1G games. Last year he was 0-2 (including the bowl game as Josh did). The year before, he was 1-1. That gives Kill a record of 3-3 in one score B1G/bowl games. Haven't done the math, but that is a much better winning percentage than 12-22. Mason did do some things right. He recruited some great running backs, and put talented teams on the field that gave us some nice seasons and some big wins over good teams. You think that those positives outweigh the negatives that were the blown leads and inability to win close games. That is a fair perspective. But so is Josh's perspective that the inability to win close games was too much to bear.
 


Maximus said:
Why can't he?
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He certainly shouldn't UNLESS he wants to start a new discussion about it and then, we will certainly have to weigh all sides of the issue. Why didn't Coach Kill and his coaches make adjustments to score touchdowns during the last 10 quarters of this 2013 Season when SO MUCH could have been accomplished? (I think that some very good things were accomplished but, since you people want to be the way you are, we will have to ask ALL the tough questions about Coach Kill and his staff and the handling of the end of this Conference Schedule in 2013. Right boys and girls?

Personally, I have NO problems with it...BUT, if you people want to try to trash a Coach who did a pretty damn good job with a pretty damn tough situation, having to play in the damn dome who managed to raise levels of awareness of the NEED for an on campus stadium enough to get the new stadium approved so that Coaches who followed would not have to play in the damn dome, then I guess we are just going to HAVE to take a good look at what is going on right now too, won't we?

And why shouldn't I comment that you Mason bashers are constantly wanting to try to bash the things that were good about the history of my Golden Gopher Football Program? You all too often say you are tired of the talk about Mason...but...you people are the ones who CONSTANTLY and FOREVER bring it up. Coach Mason's Era was a part of my Golden Gopher Football Team's history.

IF and WHEN Coach Kill, or any other Football Coach manages to stick around this program for TEN seasons the way Coach Mason did that will be a GREAT day. Until it happens, you WILL have to live with the GOOD THINGS that Coach Mason accomplished and for TEN years, as well as any not as good things. Nobody is perfect...not even Coach Kill. We will see if ANY Football Coach at the U of M EVER manages to have enough GOOD things to outweigh the less than good things to SURVIVE ten years at the University of Minnesota. Time...AND the Conference Records will tell the tale, won't they boys and girls and maximus, et al Mason bashers. You people probably have your work cut out for you. I am cheering for Coach Kill and his staff to SMASH Coach Mason's records during he next seven years! I want my Golden Gophers to win and win big! Go Gophers. Win which ever bowl game you are invited to!
 

imthewalrus said:
we will have to ask ALL the tough questions about Coach Kill and his staff and the handling of the end of this Conference Schedule in 2013. Right boys and girls?
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So critique the performance of Kill and his coaching staff just as the board did with Brew and his crew? And with Mase and his crew? As we've done after the fact with Wacker and with Gutekunst and with Holtz?

Seems fair.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Yes Wren, the bowl game last year was rough, and I think a lot of us vented about what we felt were some bad decisions made at the end of the game. The problem is not that Mason lost a few close ones, it is that he didn't change anything and get it fixed. This year, Kill is 2-0 in one-score B1G games. Last year he was 0-2 (including the bowl game as Josh did). The year before, he was 1-1. That gives Kill a record of 3-3 in one score B1G/bowl games. Haven't done the math, but that is a much better winning percentage than 12-22. Mason did do some things right. He recruited some great running backs, and put talented teams on the field that gave us some nice seasons and some big wins over good teams. You think that those positives outweigh the negatives that were the blown leads and inability to win close games. That is a fair perspective. But so is Josh's perspective that the inability to win close games was too much to bear.
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Well, since he won some close games he must have done some things differently when he had the layers to do so. I think you could say pretty much the same thing about Coach Kill. I am sure he will make changes when he has options...but: why 10 quarters in succession to end the season without a touchdown? Didn't he know what he was doing wasn't working? Why were some of those losses at least closer than they were?

My answer is simply that sometimes there just are NOT any other options. Sometimes the OTHER team has more play makers. Some times the other team is simply better. And, damn it, some times the other team is just plain lucky. The same was true for Coach Mason and is true for Coach Kill.

To me the BIGGER problem is when the team can't even get close enough to lose some close games. Why didn't the Gophers even come close to iowa the last two years or Michigan the last two years? There you have a zero for four situation of losing big. Or, could it just be the nature of the beast?

ANY way a game is lost is a painful way to lose a game. And, re: Coach Mason vs. Coach Kill...I'd take EITHER of them as the Coach of my Golden Gopher Football Team ANY and/or EVERY day. think they are BOTH damn good coaches. I like BOTH of them equally. And I will defend BOTH of them all day long!
 

I still have much more hope for the future with JK because of what happened in the January of 2000. That was a fiasco that set the program back almost to square one. You could even argue that the potential under Mason permanently dropped after that.
 

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