Transfers and APR?

I keep hearing about how FIU's coming APR sanctions are partly due to the exodus of players when Isiah Thomas left, and I've heard several other times that transfers can hurt APR.

Are the Gophers in danger of APR sanctions ourselves? Think about all of the transfers we've had the last few years.

Also, how is it that teams like Kentucky can avoid APR sanctions when (presumably) so few of their players actually graduate (instead turning pro after a year)? Does it not count against APR when those guys basically attend one semester of school, probably take a bunch of basket weaving classes to stay eligible for spring semester, then drop out?

Good questions. I have no answers, but more questions!

I'm also curious about FIU's APR. How big of a window is there for the APR calculation? Is any of FIU's trouble as a result of Pitino (another way to phrase it....could he have kept them out of ineligibility)

See this article from last week on FIU (and comments on where Big Ten teams are at).

Any followup questions on it, let me know here.

A couple of notes:
Odd? Maybe. But Willie Burton's graduation will help Minnesota's 2012-13 APR (and all multi-year APRs with that year in it).

"Kentucky" - if a kid drops out then you've got an issue. But, if the student-athlete completes the semester then leaves early for the NBA or another pro gig, you don't get "hit" (with a 0/1 or 1/2).

In Minnesota's case this year, Burton's graduation might* especially help depending on the arrangements some of this season's student-athletes had... i.e., if they just stopped going to school, ouch. Sometimes there are ways (including online courses) to get through the semester without being physically present... but it's hard to know if such arrangements exist - student specific academic info is generally kept private.

edit: Some more... we're in a phase-in period of new penalties. Currently the data being looked at is 4-year APR scores and 2-year APR scores. 4 year is the most 'relevant' and often referred to score. The APR scores lag - so, in the coming weeks the scores that will be released will be updated for the 4 (and 2 year) APR scores through the 2011-12 academic year.

With regard to FIU, their APR scores for Pitino's 2012-13 season won't even start appearing in their calculations until a year from now... but will stay in the calcs for four years.

--- Also.. on transfers - generally if a student-athlete leaves in good standing (i.e., a grade point average above a certain requirement), and enrolls at another school.. again you don't get the retention point for the second semester, but the denominator is also removed... so your year could still have a perfect 1000 APR.

So.. last year Chip Armelin transferred. If his grades weren't awful, not a big deal. If they were in bad shape, Minnesota will get dinged.

Gopher Warrior said:

See this article from last week on FIU (and comments on where Big Ten teams are at).

Any followup questions on it, let me know here.

A couple of notes:
Odd? Maybe. But Willie Burton's graduation will help Minnesota's 2012-13 APR (and all multi-year APRs with that year in it).

"Kentucky" - if a kid drops out then you've got an issue. But, if the student-athlete completes the semester then leaves early for the NBA or another pro gig, you don't get "hit" (with a 0/1 or 1/2).

In Minnesota's case this year, Burton's graduation might* especially help depending on the arrangements some of this season's student-athletes had... i.e., if they just stopped going to school, ouch. Sometimes there are ways (including online courses) to get through the semester without being physically present... but it's hard to know if such arrangements exist - student specific academic info is generally kept private.

edit: Some more... we're in a phase-in period of new penalties. Currently the data being looked at is 4-year APR scores and 2-year APR scores. 4 year is the most 'relevant' and often referred to score. The APR scores lag - so, in the coming weeks the scores that will be released will be updated for the 4 (and 2 year) APR scores through the 2011-12 academic year.

With regard to FIU, their APR scores for Pitino's 2012-13 season won't even start appearing in their calculations until a year from now... but will stay in the calcs for four years.

--- Also.. on transfers - generally if a student-athlete leaves in good standing (i.e., a grade point average above a certain requirement), and enrolls at another school.. again you don't get the retention point for the second semester, but the denominator is also removed... so your year could still have a perfect 1000 APR.

So.. last year Chip Armelin transferred. If his grades weren't awful, not a big deal. If they were in bad shape, Minnesota will get dinged.

Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks for the information GW. Sounds like a lot of this stuff is "behind the curtain" so to speak.

How do you know Minnesota's in the worst shape if the scores haven't been released yet? Does the school know which players (or former players) are causing its APR problems? Does the public?

Why is the school dinged based on a "drop out"? E.g., if Joe Coleman finishes this semester in good standing then transfers, the U isn't ding, but if Coleman just decides he's had enough and drops out, we get dinged even if he ends up doing fine and graduating at his new school? That doesn't seem fair to me. So for guys like Royce White, Devoe Joseph, Cobbs, Iverson, et al. we are sort of beholden to their decision to finish their business at school (or not) before they transfer?

So it sounds like if Pitino had stayed at FIU they still would've been under post season ban for next year? That puts another interesting spin on his coming to Minnesota. Certainly fortunate for him that he got the offer.

pharmacygopher said:

Good questions. I have no answers, but more questions!

I'm also curious about FIU's APR. How big of a window is there for the APR calculation? Is any of FIU's trouble as a result of Pitino (another way to phrase it....could he have kept them out of ineligibility)

Click to expand...

New Gophers basketball coach Richard Pitino was not involved with the low Academic Progress Rate at his former program that could bring NCAA sanctions next season, Florida International athletic director Pete Garcia said at a news conference Thursday, April 4.

"Richard inherited an APR issue," Garcia said. "Any issues that we have with APR when the NCAA releases that in the summer is not on Richard. He has helped improve that drastically."

FIU's APR was 833 in 2010-11 under former Golden Panthers coach Isiah Thomas, who was fired in April 2012 after three seasons. Results of the 2011-12 season will be released in June and could leave FIU ineligible for the 2014 NCAA tournament.

"(Missing out on the postseason) is a very real possibility for next season," Garcia said. "When I hired coach Pitino, he was aware of that, and whoever I hire now I will be up front with him that there is a possibility that there will be APR repercussions for next season."

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci...ball-richard-pitino-didnt-cause-fius-possible

WanderingGopher said:

Interesting, thanks for the information GW. Sounds like a lot of this stuff is "behind the curtain" so to speak.

How do you know Minnesota's in the worst shape if the scores haven't been released yet? Does the school know which players (or former players) are causing its APR problems? Does the public?

Click to expand...

Since the important score is the 4-year multi-year APR, with a little work combined with some knowledge + some* assumptions/guesswork you can get to the conclusion on Minnesota. The Gophers have a perfect year dropping off (2007-08) from their calculation for this year (i.e., the 4 year APR for the years ending 2011-12... these 4 years impact postseason eligibility for the 2013-14 season).

WanderingGopher said:

Why is the school dinged based on a "drop out"? E.g., if Joe Coleman finishes this semester in good standing then transfers, the U isn't ding, but if Coleman just decides he's had enough and drops out, we get dinged even if he ends up doing fine and graduating at his new school? That doesn't seem fair to me. So for guys like Royce White, Devoe Joseph, Cobbs, Iverson, et al. we are sort of beholden to their decision to finish their business at school (or not) before they transfer?

Click to expand...

Not to get too into details, but.. essentially each student-athlete can earn you 4 points per academic year. 2 each semester. 1 is for retention, 1 is for eligibility. Think of the APR as just a percentage. So if you had 13 players that all were perfect and great, you'd be at 52 of 52 (13 players x 4 possible points = 52.. earned all 52, so... 52 divided by 52 = 100%, so the APR is 1,000).

So, if Coleman (or Cobbs, Iverson, Joseph etc) transfer in "good standing" after a semester finishes up you only get 1 points (eligibility point, but not the retention point). However, because of the good standing and them enrolling elsewhere (or if they went to the NBA or overseas, etc early) the NCAA doesn't include the "lost point" in the denominator either. So, if in 2012-13 Minnesota was all good with 13 scholarship players except Coleman transferred in good standing at the end of the year... the APR for that year would be calculated as 51 of 51, or 100% (APR = 1,000).

edit: the "goal" is for kids to progress academically. So, if they are not doing poorly in school, but decide to transfer (or go pro), the current school isn't harshly punished. However, if a kid's progress stops (i.e., just drops out) or is not doing well in school, then the current school is punished by the APR

WanderingGopher said:

So it sounds like if Pitino had stayed at FIU they still would've been under post season ban for next year? That puts another interesting spin on his coming to Minnesota. Certainly fortunate for him that he got the offer.

Click to expand...

Well, we still have yet to see if there will be a post season ban at FIU (certainly expected, but you never know how an appeal can turn out). But, yes - FIU's APR score that impacts their 2013-14 postseason eligibility will be on years through 2011-12 i.e. before Pitino even got there.

Now, there can be adjustments in the year after an academic year finishes up... (for example, you need to know if a Joe Coleman enrolls elsewhere in order to have the 1 point dropped off the denominator).. so, that's a reason why there is a time lag (although it's too long, IMO). However, Pitino would have known (er, should have - if he asked or researched) before getting to FIU that they'd likely have a ban in 2013-14 and he would have known when leaving for Minnesota.

pharmacygopher said:

Good questions. I have no answers, but more questions!

I'm also curious about FIU's APR. How big of a window is there for the APR calculation? Is any of FIU's trouble as a result of Pitino (another way to phrase it....could he have kept them out of ineligibility)

Click to expand...

The only person who can keep a student athlete eligible is the student athlete themselves. Coaches and tutors can prod, push, use behavior mod- whatever- but it's on the STUDENT ATHLETE to stay eligible.

When have we turned into a society that forgets that this falls straight on the plate of responsibilty that sits squarely in the student athlete's lap?

wigopher1 said:

The only person who can keep a student athlete eligible is the student athlete themselves. Coaches and tutors can prod, push, use behavior mod- whatever- but it's on the STUDENT ATHLETE to stay eligible.

When have we turned into a society that forgets that this falls straight on the plate of responsibilty that sits squarely in the student athlete's lap?

Click to expand...

I agree, but I love what Kill did with the football team. He made sure kids went to class and studied. He checked in on them, etc. If they didn't do it, they didn't play (Hageman, Carter). Those two really turned their academic careers and lives around. I believe that is part of the responsibility.

wigopher1 said:

The only person who can keep a student athlete eligible is the student athlete themselves. Coaches and tutors can prod, push, use behavior mod- whatever- but it's on the STUDENT ATHLETE to stay eligible.

When have we turned into a society that forgets that this falls straight on the plate of responsibilty that sits squarely in the student athlete's lap?

Click to expand...

True -- but until we view these players only as ATHLETES and not as STUDENT ATHLETES then the burden will fall on both the school and the player to make sure some standard is being met. If the school wasn't held responsible at all, then the school would have no incentive to help these players work toward graduation. It would be a bigger sham than it is right now.

wigopher1 said:

The only person who can keep a student athlete eligible is the student athlete themselves. Coaches and tutors can prod, push, use behavior mod- whatever- but it's on the STUDENT ATHLETE to stay eligible.

When have we turned into a society that forgets that this falls straight on the plate of responsibilty that sits squarely in the student athlete's lap?

Click to expand...

Probably a good idea for the HC and staff to insure the athletes a true students since the coaches careers depend on it.

golfing18now said:

True -- but until we view these players only as ATHLETES and not as STUDENT ATHLETES then the burden will fall on both the school and the player to make sure some standard is being met. If the school wasn't held responsible at all, then the school would have no incentive to help these players work toward graduation. It would be a bigger sham than it is right now.

Click to expand...

Considering how corrupt and hypocritical the NCAA is athletes won't be recognized as only athletes by the NCAA until they lose badly in court and the economics of college sports changes. Fortunately, that day may come soon. The NCAA is going to get its clock cleaned. It is just a matter of when not if, as the cases currently in court will ruin the NCAA and expose them as frauds. I really wonder what collegiate sports will look like in ten years.

station19 said:

Probably a good idea for the HC and staff to insure the athletes a true students since the coaches careers depend on it.

Click to expand...

+1

Gopher Warrior said:

See this article from last week on FIU (and comments on where Big Ten teams are at).

Any followup questions on it, let me know here.

A couple of notes:
Odd? Maybe. But Willie Burton's graduation will help Minnesota's 2012-13 APR (and all multi-year APRs with that year in it).

"Kentucky" - if a kid drops out then you've got an issue. But, if the student-athlete completes the semester then leaves early for the NBA or another pro gig, you don't get "hit" (with a 0/1 or 1/2).

In Minnesota's case this year, Burton's graduation might* especially help depending on the arrangements some of this season's student-athletes had... i.e., if they just stopped going to school, ouch. Sometimes there are ways (including online courses) to get through the semester without being physically present... but it's hard to know if such arrangements exist - student specific academic info is generally kept private.

edit: Some more... we're in a phase-in period of new penalties. Currently the data being looked at is 4-year APR scores and 2-year APR scores. 4 year is the most 'relevant' and often referred to score. The APR scores lag - so, in the coming weeks the scores that will be released will be updated for the 4 (and 2 year) APR scores through the 2011-12 academic year.

With regard to FIU, their APR scores for Pitino's 2012-13 season won't even start appearing in their calculations until a year from now... but will stay in the calcs for four years.

--- Also.. on transfers - generally if a student-athlete leaves in good standing (i.e., a grade point average above a certain requirement), and enrolls at another school.. again you don't get the retention point for the second semester, but the denominator is also removed... so your year could still have a perfect 1000 APR.

So.. last year Chip Armelin transferred. If his grades weren't awful, not a big deal. If they were in bad shape, Minnesota will get dinged.

Click to expand...

This seams to be a suggestion that Trevor, Rodney, and/or Andre Ingram were not going to class? Considering Julian just graduated, it has to be a couple of those guys you are insinuating may hurt the APR. It wouldn't surprise me if Trevor just did enough to stay eligible through the first semester considering he graduated and has been preparing for the draft out of state.

EG#9 said:

This seams to be a suggestion that Trevor, Rodney, and/or Andre Ingram were not going to class? Considering Julian just graduated, it has to be a couple of those guys you are insinuating may hurt the APR. It wouldn't surprise me if Trevor just did enough to stay eligible through the first semester considering he graduated and has been preparing for the draft out of state.

Click to expand...

Does anybody know what a grad student's schedule requirement is to be eligible?