Generational views... ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Donate To GopherHole
T

Tucker32

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Reaction score
1,412
Points
113
I've been thinking a lot about the many comments I see from people on here -- our own fans and others -- who don't think we can compete. If we focus on the years since Clem left, there isn't a lot of great evidence that we can. However, for those of us who are forty or over still picture a winning program. Like anything, I think we are shaped by what we saw in our formative years.

For example, I still can't see the Packers as winners, or the Badgers, because they sucked through the '70s, 80's, and early '90s when I was growing up from elementary school through mid-twenties.

I remember, barely, Mychal Thompsom, Osborne Lockhart, Ray Williams in the mid70s, then the '82 championship with Tucker, Mitchell, Cookie... We then had the run in the late '80s-early '90s with Willie and company, followed by the run to the final four in '97. So, we were mostly highly competitive with hopes of making runs for championships (didn't always get them) every 4-5 years. We recruited nationally, and were always considered a strong program. No one thought we couldn't compete with an Ohio State, for example - this is basketball, not football. Most people didn't have this hopeless feeling about a Minnesota recruit considering MN.

We've had our moments since Clem, but nothing significant. We can get an atmosphere at The Barn again. There is no reason why we can't. However, we do need to have higher expectations for our program than I often see here. If the fans demand more, I think we have an administration that will now respond. There is no reason we can't compete with any program in the Big Ten on a regular basis.
 

Marvelous post. Is there a word stronger than marvelous?
 


Ozzy&Ray said:
I've been thinking a lot about the many comments I see from people on here -- our own fans and others -- who don't think we can compete. If we focus on the years since Clem left, there isn't a lot of great evidence that we can. However, for those of us who are forty or over still picture a winning program. Like anything, I think we are shaped by what we saw in our formative years.

For example, I still can't see the Packers as winners, or the Badgers, because they sucked through the '70s, 80's, and early '90s when I was growing up from elementary school through mid-twenties.

I remember, barely, Mychal Thompsom, Osborne Lockhart, Ray Williams in the mid70s, then the '82 championship with Tucker, Mitchell, Cookie... We then had the run in the late '80s-early '90s with Willie and company, followed by the run to the final four in '97. So, we were mostly highly competitive with hopes of making runs for championships (didn't always get them) every 4-5 years. We recruited nationally, and were always considered a strong program. No one thought we couldn't compete with an Ohio State, for example - this is basketball, not football. Most people didn't have this hopeless feeling about a Minnesota recruit considering MN.

We've had our moments since Clem, but nothing significant. We can get an atmosphere at The Barn again. There is no reason why we can't. However, we do need to have higher expectations for our program than I often see here. If the fans demand more, I think we have an administration that will now respond. There is no reason we can't compete with any program in the Big Ten on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

Could not have said it better.
 

Ozzy & Ray, thanks for the insight. I've been scratching my head about the "mediocrity is the best we can expect" outlook and I think your viewpoint hit the nail very much on its head. I became cognizant of the Gophers at age 9, when they won the '82 Big Ten title. I fondly remember pieces from my memory of games on KMSP-Channel 9, Trent Tucker's halftime shooting tips, and the freakish looking Randy Breuer filling up the TV screen. I recall Daryl Mitchell calmly sinking free throws to win the Iowa game in Iowa City and the clinching of the BT title with those free throws.

I don't really remember the lean years that immediately followed-I do have fond memories of reading about Breuer, Tommy Davis, John Shasky in the Star/Trib and Sid's recruiting tidbits. The scandal then broke with Mitch Lee (which I really didn't understand), but that followed with very fond, if sketchy, memories of the Iron Five. That was followed of course by Clem and as the Gophers waded through the post-Lee haze, they emerged when I was in 11th & 12th grade, making deep runs in the NCAA tournament and procuring the only note from my mother ever excusing from school when I wasn't legitimately sick. What followed were fairly regular trips to the NCAA tournament with entertaining players such as Ariel McDonald, Voshon Lenard, Townsend Orr, Randy Carter, and Jayson Walton. '97 hit while I was in grad school and what a wonderful ride that was, even if the official record books tell us it wasn't.

So, from elementary school to grad school ('82 to '97), I and other Gopher fans experienced two coaches (not counting interim Jimmy Williams), one scandal that rocked the program, a complete rebuilding job, a few losing seasons, a few mediocre but got is into the NIT tournament seasons (four), six NCAA berths, two Big Ten titles, and a Final Four. (yes, yes, I know it was vacated along with two of the other NCAA visits in that period). In the midst of these sixteen years, the Gophers weathered a massive hit, yet emerged from that time as a viable basketball program again. All of this done without the benefit of a strong in-state recruiting base for most of those years, when Brett McNeal at Western Kentucky was the biggest name that "got away".

So, I'm there with you O&R-my expectations were steeled during those years and I still have not seen a credible argument that tells me it cannot occur again and done cleanly (or as clean as it gets in college basketball).
 


Maybe it is generational, as in the early days of this forum the type of performances we've seen the past 3 years never would have been tolerated by any of the members. My own perception of these posts were that they were coming from out state Minnesotan's who may view Minnesota differently than those from the Twin Cities metro area.

I am concerned that the basketball board is quickly becoming the football board where expectations are non-existent and I think it's tough to recover from that.



Coolhand- I would add that both the 92-93 team (11-7 in the conference) and the 1995-1996 team (10-8 in the conference) were strong teams that were absolutely worthy of being in the NCAA's. I am a little young for the 92-93 team, but I remember watching the 95-96 team "wrap up" a tournament bid by beating Henson in his last game in Champaign (was replayed on BTN this Summer).
 

I agree. I think it gets a lot harder to hear the "every team has its good years and bad years" when, since I was a freshman, I have seen seven years (14 seasons combined football and basketball) without one truly good team (I use an above .500 B1G record or significant NCAA postseason as measures of a good team. 0/14 has been rough, so it is tough to imagine better years ahead when I don't know what they look like yet. I have more patience with Lucia's highs and lows because I have seen him have some really good years here, so I know he is capable of winning, and capable of doing it here.
 

Ozzy&Ray said:
I've been thinking a lot about the many comments I see from people on here -- our own fans and others -- who don't think we can compete. If we focus on the years since Clem left, there isn't a lot of great evidence that we can. However, for those of us who are forty or over still picture a winning program. Like anything, I think we are shaped by what we saw in our formative years.

For example, I still can't see the Packers as winners, or the Badgers, because they sucked through the '70s, 80's, and early '90s when I was growing up from elementary school through mid-twenties.

I remember, barely, Mychal Thompsom, Osborne Lockhart, Ray Williams in the mid70s, then the '82 championship with Tucker, Mitchell, Cookie... We then had the run in the late '80s-early '90s with Willie and company, followed by the run to the final four in '97. So, we were mostly highly competitive with hopes of making runs for championships (didn't always get them) every 4-5 years. We recruited nationally, and were always considered a strong program. No one thought we couldn't compete with an Ohio State, for example - this is basketball, not football. Most people didn't have this hopeless feeling about a Minnesota recruit considering MN.

We've had our moments since Clem, but nothing significant. We can get an atmosphere at The Barn again. There is no reason why we can't. However, we do need to have higher expectations for our program than I often see here. If the fans demand more, I think we have an administration that will now respond. There is no reason we can't compete with any program in the Big Ten on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

Spot.

On.

Just dont tell dpdoll that MN BB should have any expectations.......
 

EG#9 said:
Maybe it is generational, as in the early days of this forum the type of performances we've seen the past 3 years never would have been tolerated by any of the members. My own perception of these posts were that they were coming from out state Minnesotan's who may view Minnesota differently than those from the Twin Cities metro area.

I am concerned that the basketball board is quickly becoming the football board where expectations are non-existent and I think it's tough to recover from that.



Coolhand- I would add that both the 92-93 team (11-7 in the conference) and the 1995-1996 team (10-8 in the conference) were strong teams that were absolutely worthy of being in the NCAA's. I am a little young for the 92-93 team, but I remember watching the 95-96 team "wrap up" a tournament bid by beating Henson in his last game in Champaign (was replayed on BTN this Summer).
Click to expand...

Re the bold text remark -- would you expand on that point? Thanks.
 



Interesting musings. Cut the chase. If I were Woody the first phone call is to Eric Musselman.
 

Wow, love the censorship. The long rambling post, ok, I understand that one. The other ones?! Short and to the point and very informative and TRUE and enlightening.

But I suppose you'd rather Gopher fans stay in the dark, that will SURELY help solve our problems.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Wow, love the censorship. The long rambling post, ok, I understand that one. The other ones?! Short and to the point and very informative and TRUE and enlightening.

But I suppose you'd rather Gopher fans stay in the dark, that will SURELY help solve our problems.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^^^^^The post that says the most^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 




Bad Gopher said:
Can you clue me in to what you think it says???
Click to expand...



ego-explosion1.png
 

EG#9 said:
Maybe it is generational, as in the early days of this forum the type of performances we've seen the past 3 years never would have been tolerated by any of the members. My own perception of these posts were that they were coming from out state Minnesotan's who may view Minnesota differently than those from the Twin Cities metro area.

I am concerned that the basketball board is quickly becoming the football board where expectations are non-existent and I think it's tough to recover from that.



Coolhand- I would add that both the 92-93 team (11-7 in the conference) and the 1995-1996 team (10-8 in the conference) were strong teams that were absolutely worthy of being in the NCAA's. I am a little young for the 92-93 team, but I remember watching the 95-96 team "wrap up" a tournament bid by beating Henson in his last game in Champaign (was replayed on BTN this Summer).
Click to expand...

In what ways does the reactions/expectations of a fan message board affect a team's performance?

I get a chuckle out of people who say we're losing because the expectations of our fans is too low.
 

GophersInIowa said:
In what ways does the reactions/expectations of a fan message board affect a team's performance?

I get a chuckle out of people who say we're losing because the expectations of our fans is too low.
Click to expand...

I kinda wonder about that too!

I am a season ticket holder because I truly enjoy the college football atmosphere. Winning and losing are part of the experience and I expect one or the other.
 

#1nHkyCfbBsbDncSolarDebat said:
Wow, love the censorship. The long rambling post, ok, I understand that one. The other ones?! Short and to the point and very informative and TRUE and enlightening.

But I suppose you'd rather Gopher fans stay in the dark, that will SURELY help solve our problems.
Click to expand...

Evidently they also got tired of your smug, verbose posts. And, by the way, you're not informative or enlightening. You're so wrapped up in presenting your "facts" backing your position that you really don't grasp why a lot of long time, astute fans are so upset and concerned. Really am tired of some arrogant twit telling me over and over what Gopher basketball has been like with his numbers when he has no idea of how exciting and fun it actually was and the following it had around the state. I don't expect championships. I do expect to be a factor in the conference every so often. I do expect seeing mostly well played games; if we lose one of those, I'm upset, but I can move on and look forward to the next one. But there have been so many stretches of awful basketball this year that you'd either have to be an idiot or Donna not to question what the hell is going on.

It takes a lot for me to question a coach, but I'm there. It's not just the prospect of being a bubble team again. Hell, right now I'd take last team in from the Big 10. It's all the other factors . A chance to truly excite the students and state about Gopher basketball has been squandered. The best basketball class in a long time is sitting out there and what's going on can't help our chances with them. After several years of bad luck, Tubby has had his team, but so far it's been a disappointing one.
 

Mulligan said:
Evidently they also got tired of your smug, verbose posts. And, by the way, you're not informative or enlightening. You're so wrapped up in presenting your "facts" backing your position that you really don't grasp why a lot of long time, astute fans are so upset and concerned. Really am tired of some arrogant twit telling me over and over what Gopher basketball has been like with his numbers when he has no idea of how exciting and fun it actually was and the following it had around the state. I don't expect championships. I do expect to be a factor in the conference every so often. I do expect seeing mostly well played games; if we lose one of those, I'm upset, but I can move on and look forward to the next one. But there have been so many stretches of awful basketball this year that you'd either have to be an idiot or Donna not to question what the hell is going on.

It takes a lot for me to question a coach, but I'm there. It's not just the prospect of being a bubble team again. Hell, right now I'd take last team in from the Big 10. It's all the other factors . A chance to truly excite the students and state about Gopher basketball has been squandered. The best basketball class in a long time is sitting out there and what's going on can't help our chances with them. After several years of bad luck, Tubby has had his team, but so far it's been a disappointing one.
Click to expand...

:clap:
 

EG#9 said:
Maybe it is generational, as in the early days of this forum the type of performances we've seen the past 3 years never would have been tolerated by any of the members. My own perception of these posts were that they were coming from out state Minnesotan's who may view Minnesota differently than those from the Twin Cities metro area.

I am concerned that the basketball board is quickly becoming the football board where expectations are non-existent and I think it's tough to recover from that.



Coolhand- I would add that both the 92-93 team (11-7 in the conference) and the 1995-1996 team (10-8 in the conference) were strong teams that were absolutely worthy of being in the NCAA's. I am a little young for the 92-93 team, but I remember watching the 95-96 team "wrap up" a tournament bid by beating Henson in his last game in Champaign (was replayed on BTN this Summer).
Click to expand...

That '95-96 team got hosed. The 'Lunardi's' of the day all said we were a lock if we won at Illinois and might make it even with a loss. So we take care of business and nothing. Seth Greenburg's got nothing on that team. That would have meant 4 NCAA teams in a row for Clem and 5 out of 6 at the end of his run.
 

Maybe I've been reading a different board, but I don't recall a single post from anyone saying that Minnesota can't compete.
 

GophersInIowa said:
In what ways does the reactions/expectations of a fan message board affect a team's performance?

I get a chuckle out of people who say we're losing because the expectations of our fans is too low.
Click to expand...

I think that when the fans stop caring and apathy starts setting in, fans stop pressuring the AD and administration, acceptance of mediocrity happens.
 

Coolew01 said:
I think that when the fans stop caring and apathy starts setting in, fans stop pressuring the AD and administration, acceptance of mediocrity happens.
Click to expand...

I think any pressure the AD feels comes from the big donors and ticket proceeds(or lack thereof).
 

Ozzy&Ray said:
I've been thinking a lot about the many comments I see from people on here -- our own fans and others -- who don't think we can compete. If we focus on the years since Clem left, there isn't a lot of great evidence that we can. However, for those of us who are forty or over still picture a winning program. Like anything, I think we are shaped by what we saw in our formative years.

For example, I still can't see the Packers as winners, or the Badgers, because they sucked through the '70s, 80's, and early '90s when I was growing up from elementary school through mid-twenties.

I remember, barely, Mychal Thompsom, Osborne Lockhart, Ray Williams in the mid70s, then the '82 championship with Tucker, Mitchell, Cookie... We then had the run in the late '80s-early '90s with Willie and company, followed by the run to the final four in '97. So, we were mostly highly competitive with hopes of making runs for championships (didn't always get them) every 4-5 years. We recruited nationally, and were always considered a strong program. No one thought we couldn't compete with an Ohio State, for example - this is basketball, not football. Most people didn't have this hopeless feeling about a Minnesota recruit considering MN.

We've had our moments since Clem, but nothing significant. We can get an atmosphere at The Barn again. There is no reason why we can't. However, we do need to have higher expectations for our program than I often see here. If the fans demand more, I think we have an administration that will now respond. There is no reason we can't compete with any program in the Big Ten on a regular basis.
Click to expand...
X2 great post~
 

I am old enough to barely remember Mychal Thompson et al, but also to barely remember Lou Hudson, Archie Clark, Jim Brewer et al.

What is interesting to me about Ozzy & Ray's post is that, yes, they're right, from 1972 right on up through 1999, we thought we could compete. But prior to 1972, not so much. The Gophers had done poorly from about 1954-1955 (there was a 2nd place in about there) until Hudson and Clark showed up, then there was another 2nd place in about 1965. But after they left, from 1966-1967ish through 1972 there was a 5 year period that wasn't great.

That turned around with the hiring of Bill Musselman in 1972. He brought in Behagen and Clyde Turner (and inherited Jim Brewer, lucky dog) and initiated a very showy pre-game warm-up and people really took to his swagger and confidence and got behind the team big-time and then came the wins and more excitement and more wins and so on. It took a real miracle worker to turn it around and, unfortunately as we now know, the miracle worker had a dark side. But while the miracle worker moved on and there were some downsides to the miracle (the brawl, the NCAA sanctions, etc.), the fact is the miracle pretty much lasted. The Gophers competed under Dutcher and Clem for a quarter-century. But getting things turned around, that was tough.

It seems obvious that Tubby is not a miracle worker. Once you know that, you gotta throw the dice again.
 

The Gophers rank 9th in the current B1G in NCAA tournament appearances. The Gophers can compete, but fan's expectations are based on something that's not real; A Minnesota Gophers program that has a rich history. The older generation can quickly recall the successful seasons because it's easy to remember a year here and there.
 

Yes and no. We would cheerfully accept a rerun of the record from 1972 to 1999. That's not that long ago. The problem with NCAA tournament appearances was there were none/zero/zilch/nada from 1939 to 1972, which is a fairly long time ago.
 


sunnyday2 said:
Yes and no. We would cheerfully accept a rerun of the record from 1972 to 1999. That's not that long ago. The problem with NCAA tournament appearances was there were none/zero/zilch/nada from 1939 to 1972, which is a fairly long time ago.
Click to expand...

Well then we're just erasing 33 years from the NCAA tournament history to justify our "success." I'm fairly certain it wouldn't be that much different: Michigan State, Michigan, Purdue, Illinois, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Indiana, and Iowa would be ahead of the Gophers in tourney appearances since 1972.
 

sunnyday2 said:
We would cheerfully accept a rerun of the record from 1972 to 1999.
Click to expand...

We would? I personally would rather not have widespread academic fraud and crippling sanctions from which the school has yet to recover. Thanks, though.

BarnBurner said:
cant compete = no expectations.
Click to expand...

False equivalency. Also, no one has said "no expectations" either.
 

Coolew01 said:
I think that when the fans stop caring and apathy starts setting in, fans stop pressuring the AD and administration, acceptance of mediocrity happens.
Click to expand...

If an AD makes decisions partly based on fan reactions right after a loss or several losses, then I want a new AD.

Either way, I still don't see how what people post on a fan message board has any affect on a team's success.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.



Top Bottom