Amelia blog: After six losses in eight games, is Minnesota in quicksand?

Donate To GopherHole

That bullet about the substitution patterns - what the hell was Smith trying to say? Or do I even want to know?
 


Coach Smith Recruits

Fans can blame Tubby for this mess but not for his coaching but for his recruiting. I have been friends with players of the program since 2006-2007 and the past 3 classes been too many good guys who are soft and cannot handle Coach Smith style of coaching that is why it does not make sense to why Coach Smith is choosing to go after these guys. The last 3 classes have included Maverick, Andre Ingram, Elliot Eliason, Oto, Mo Walker and Julian Welch. It is clear that these should not be in the game at the same time, but Tubby insist that he has depth and the 5 in 5 out subbing works. This is supposed to be the deepest team but the 2008-2009 team was better and the 2009-2010. Those two teams had more depth. This team has talent but it is only 7 or 8 players should touch the court not 9 or 10. Another problem is the players have lost confidence in themselves it is either the Hollins' or Trevor shooting or Joe Coleman shooting something reckless with a man wide open. I am not an advocating of firing Tubby because I think he is a good coach and a good person but his best coaching days or behind him and I think it is time for him to retire. I know I will probably get bashed if you look at it he has not been to the tournament since Westbrook and Johnson last season and those were Monson's last two recruits so it proves that Tubby has not been bringing in the right players to his system. Then you look at the players that left Colton Iverson (having an all conf year) Paul Carter (put up big numbers) Devoe Joseph (first team all pac 12) Justin Cobbs (all pac 12). It is because Tubby system holds players back and I have heard it out former players mouth.
 

At this point I hope on selection sunday to be one of the teams just clapping as they get selected instead of the ones yelling and screaming they get selected that make a great video.
 


GopherPlaya said:
Fans can blame Tubby for this mess but not for his coaching but for his recruiting. I have been friends with players of the program since 2006-2007 and the past 3 classes been too many good guys who are soft and cannot handle Coach Smith style of coaching that is why it does not make sense to why Coach Smith is choosing to go after these guys. The last 3 classes have included Maverick, Andre Ingram, Elliot Eliason, Oto, Mo Walker and Julian Welch. It is clear that these should not be in the game at the same time, but Tubby insist that he has depth and the 5 in 5 out subbing works. This is supposed to be the deepest team but the 2008-2009 team was better and the 2009-2010. Those two teams had more depth. This team has talent but it is only 7 or 8 players should touch the court not 9 or 10. Another problem is the players have lost confidence in themselves it is either the Hollins' or Trevor shooting or Joe Coleman shooting something reckless with a man wide open. I am not an advocating of firing Tubby because I think he is a good coach and a good person but his best coaching days or behind him and I think it is time for him to retire. I know I will probably get bashed if you look at it he has not been to the tournament since Westbrook and Johnson last season and those were Monson's last two recruits so it proves that Tubby has not been bringing in the right players to his system. Then you look at the players that left Colton Iverson (having an all conf year) Paul Carter (put up big numbers) Devoe Joseph (first team all pac 12) Justin Cobbs (all pac 12). It is because Tubby system holds players back and I have heard it out former players mouth.
Click to expand...

Great insight, well thought out post. Welcome to the board, please continue posting...we always need as many normal posters on here as possible :)
 

GopherPlaya said:
Fans can blame Tubby for this mess but not for his coaching but for his recruiting. I have been friends with players of the program since 2006-2007 and the past 3 classes been too many good guys who are soft and cannot handle Coach Smith style of coaching that is why it does not make sense to why Coach Smith is choosing to go after these guys. The last 3 classes have included Maverick, Andre Ingram, Elliot Eliason, Oto, Mo Walker and Julian Welch. It is clear that these should not be in the game at the same time, but Tubby insist that he has depth and the 5 in 5 out subbing works. This is supposed to be the deepest team but the 2008-2009 team was better and the 2009-2010. Those two teams had more depth. This team has talent but it is only 7 or 8 players should touch the court not 9 or 10. Another problem is the players have lost confidence in themselves it is either the Hollins' or Trevor shooting or Joe Coleman shooting something reckless with a man wide open. I am not an advocating of firing Tubby because I think he is a good coach and a good person but his best coaching days or behind him and I think it is time for him to retire. I know I will probably get bashed if you look at it he has not been to the tournament since Westbrook and Johnson last season and those were Monson's last two recruits so it proves that Tubby has not been bringing in the right players to his system. Then you look at the players that left Colton Iverson (having an all conf year) Paul Carter (put up big numbers) Devoe Joseph (first team all pac 12) Justin Cobbs (all pac 12). It is because Tubby system holds players back and I have heard it out former players mouth.
Click to expand...

Some interesting comments - thanks for posting. You say you are not advocating the firing of Tubby, but then show a number of players that had more success after they left, and say that his style of coaching holds players back. If that's the case (and I think I agree with a lot of what you are saying) why would you not advocate a coaching change?

I am curious what the players think of the assistants? Do they like them? If we have a "staff shake-up" will Tubby actually listen/implement new ideas with new assistants or will he still run the same systems?

I think Monson's last recruits were actually Nolen and Hoffarber.

Go Gophers!!
 

I mean I would rather see him go out with an early retirement than get fired but former players have said Tubby is a dictator and it does not matter who the assistants are things will be done his way. You can see it in the way the players play that they are scared of making mistakes and that is what's killing the team
 

GopherPlaya said:
Fans can blame Tubby for this mess but not for his coaching but for his recruiting. I have been friends with players of the program since 2006-2007 and the past 3 classes been too many good guys who are soft and cannot handle Coach Smith style of coaching that is why it does not make sense to why Coach Smith is choosing to go after these guys. The last 3 classes have included Maverick, Andre Ingram, Elliot Eliason, Oto, Mo Walker and Julian Welch. It is clear that these should not be in the game at the same time, but Tubby insist that he has depth and the 5 in 5 out subbing works. This is supposed to be the deepest team but the 2008-2009 team was better and the 2009-2010. Those two teams had more depth. This team has talent but it is only 7 or 8 players should touch the court not 9 or 10. Another problem is the players have lost confidence in themselves it is either the Hollins' or Trevor shooting or Joe Coleman shooting something reckless with a man wide open. I am not an advocating of firing Tubby because I think he is a good coach and a good person but his best coaching days or behind him and I think it is time for him to retire. I know I will probably get bashed if you look at it he has not been to the tournament since Westbrook and Johnson last season and those were Monson's last two recruits so it proves that Tubby has not been bringing in the right players to his system. Then you look at the players that left Colton Iverson (having an all conf year) Paul Carter (put up big numbers) Devoe Joseph (first team all pac 12) Justin Cobbs (all pac 12). It is because Tubby system holds players back and I have heard it out former players mouth.
Click to expand...

Playa- interesting thoughts. To sum it up I think you are saying looks like it's a combination of recruiting the wrong guys to handle the Tubby mentality AND a lousy coaching system that holds players back. So it looks to me like you are saying it's the coaching and the recruiting.....
 



has Tubby ever been fired? He quit KY before the ax fell there. I did not see tonight's game but the scond half of the MSU game was embarassing. That said it all for me...it is time for a change
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
At this point I hope on selection sunday to be one of the teams just clapping as they get selected instead of the ones yelling and screaming they get selected that make a great video.
Click to expand...

I think we are going to have to be happy either way. Right now the odds of this squad either clapping or screaming on selection sunday are only just fair.
 

GopherPlaya said:
I mean I would rather see him go out with an early retirement than get fired but former players have said Tubby is a dictator and it does not matter who the assistants are things will be done his way. You can see it in the way the players play that they are scared of making mistakes and that is what's killing the team
Click to expand...

I've heard the same thing...it doesn't matter how good the assistants are, it's his way or the highway. An up and coming coach also brought this up to me - to get a great assistant to leave their program for another assistant job for Tubby is not likely, as his job security is in jeopardy, so he wouldn't be getting someone that's already at a good program.

I like your point too - he is a good man, and you would like for him to go out gracefully and retire when ready, but in all honesty, that's not very realistic, unless it's like how Monson "resigned."

One more question for you - today seemed to be the 1st time he didn't throw anyone under the bus, but has been doing that since the MI game, how much does that affect the players, and their confidence? They do seem terrified of making mistakes.
 

BGA yes it is exactly what I am saying but I think the recruiting started off good but the off the court distractions made the staff go in another direction. The class with Paul, Devoe, Colton, Ralph, and Devron was a good class and Royce, Trevor, Justin and Rodney was a great class but with of the 9 guys only Ralph, Rodney, and Trevor stayed all the way through and Ralph was one of the softest big men I have ever seen. From what I heard Colton dominated Ralph at practice open gym and all but Ralph still got all the time while Coach Smith drained Colton's confidence. All those players who left and did well in different systems could have had great careers here.
 



GopherPlaya said:
Fans can blame Tubby for this mess but not for his coaching but for his recruiting. I have been friends with players of the program since 2006-2007 and the past 3 classes been too many good guys who are soft and cannot handle Coach Smith style of coaching that is why it does not make sense to why Coach Smith is choosing to go after these guys. The last 3 classes have included Maverick, Andre Ingram, Elliot Eliason, Oto, Mo Walker and Julian Welch. It is clear that these should not be in the game at the same time, but Tubby insist that he has depth and the 5 in 5 out subbing works. This is supposed to be the deepest team but the 2008-2009 team was better and the 2009-2010. Those two teams had more depth. This team has talent but it is only 7 or 8 players should touch the court not 9 or 10. Another problem is the players have lost confidence in themselves it is either the Hollins' or Trevor shooting or Joe Coleman shooting something reckless with a man wide open. I am not an advocating of firing Tubby because I think he is a good coach and a good person but his best coaching days or behind him and I think it is time for him to retire. I know I will probably get bashed if you look at it he has not been to the tournament since Westbrook and Johnson last season and those were Monson's last two recruits so it proves that Tubby has not been bringing in the right players to his system. Then you look at the players that left Colton Iverson (having an all conf year) Paul Carter (put up big numbers) Devoe Joseph (first team all pac 12) Justin Cobbs (all pac 12). It is because Tubby system holds players back and I have heard it out former players mouth.
Click to expand...

There's definitely a ring of truth to this. Smith thrived at Tulsa and Georgia with previous coaches' players, who were obviously able to handle his hard-nosed style. Who knows whether he would have been able to sustain the success at those places because he moved on quickly. It could be that, for whatever reason, he goes after recruits with soft personalities. A Gardenhire comparison may be in order in that Gardy prefers the 'yes sir, no sir' players to those with some fire in their ass. And then it's be careful what you wish for.
 

Gopherlady
Throwing players under bus to media probably is not half as bad as what he is telling behind close doors. If he is doing it with the media, imagine what he is saying behind close doors. The assistants can't be half bad as coaches from what I heard Coach Taylor should be a head coach now and Coach Jirsa is well known among great basketball minds
 

Let me ask you this Playa: from what you understand, does Tubby command respect and loyalty from the players and coaches?
 

GopherPlaya said:
Gopherlady
Throwing players under bus to media probably is not half as bad as what he is telling behind close doors. If he is doing it with the media, imagine what he is saying behind close doors. The assistants can't be half bad as coaches from what I heard Coach Taylor should be a head coach now and Coach Jirsa is well known among great basketball minds
Click to expand...

That's a great point. Our players just seem to respond better when they aren't getting torn apart.

Interesting about the coaches too - as Tubby does not have a track record for getting his assistants promoted. There are so many coaching trees, but Tubby doesn't seem to have one. Taylor got some looks his 1st two years, but unfortunately, it looks like with the Gophers yearly collapses, that has taken away opps for him.
 

Sounds like Norwood needs to have Tubby over for supper and a fireside chat.
 

GOODASGOLD he definitely gets respect.
Gopherlady he may have missed his window for an opportunity
 

GopherLady said:
That's a great point. Our players just seem to respond better when they aren't getting torn apart.

Interesting about the coaches too - as Tubby does not have a track record for getting his assistants promoted. There are so many coaching trees, but Tubby doesn't seem to have one. Taylor got some looks his 1st two years, but unfortunately, it looks like with the Gophers yearly collapses, that has taken away opps for him.
Click to expand...

It's really tough to come around Gopherhole after a loss. It's pick apart Tubby night....or in many cases fire Tubby night.
 

Parski1 said:
It's really tough to come around Gopherhole after a loss. It's pick apart Tubby night....or in many cases fire Tubby night.
Click to expand...

I am not on here as much as most of you, but perhaps it is because the losses (at least this year) are truly 'bad' losses.

Gopherlady & Gopherplaya - thank you both for your contributions on this particular thread. I need to get back here more, if nothing else, so I know who to look for and who to avoid.
 

I am not trying to pick him apart I am just stating facts from what I heard from players and from what I see on the court or just look at the numbers the last 2 years.
 

GopherPlaya said:
I am not trying to pick him apart I am just stating facts from what I heard from players and from what I see on the court or just look at the numbers the last 2 years.
Click to expand...

Parski1 said:
It's really tough to come around Gopherhole after a loss. It's pick apart Tubby night....or in many cases fire Tubby night.
Click to expand...

Nor am I...I think I've been very tight lipped about Tubby for the past 5 years, Parski. What on earth did either of us say that was so horrible. I think GopherPlayer has some great insight, so I am inquisitive and asking him/her questions...and he/she is answering.

Do you know of a lot of Tubby's assistants that have been promoted to HC's? If so, please share so I can know as well.

From following his post game comments, do you not see a correlation between when a player get ripped, and often, the next game he plays poorly? I do. Not sure how any of this is "fire Tubby" night. I've actually tweeted many times tonight that I think if he doesn't tank this year, there's no way he gets fired.

If you think that having an honest discussion about some practices is being hard on him, you should see what 95% of other Gopher fans are saying.
 

Colton played plenty of minutes here actually starting for most of his first year and a good portion of his third year. He got plenty of chances to prove his greatness. Tubby should stop playing these slow, uncoordinated , nonathletic players that can't defend. I agree Carter, Johnson, Joseph, Cobbs, and Ralph would have been one helluva a lineup. Bostick, Nolan, Westbrook, and the hoff off the bench would have been a really good team. Tubby should have benched the Monson guys and played his recruits and he would have retained his recruits and had more success.He shouldn't have recruited Iverson who is not capable at this level.
 

jumpstop said:
He shouldn't have recruited Iverson who is not capable at this level.
Click to expand...

Colton was far from perfect but to suggest he wasn't capable at this level isn't true. He had multiple double-double games against top talent. Didn't do it enough, but he did do it.
 

tikited said:
Colton was far from perfect but to suggest he wasn't capable at this level isn't true. He had multiple double-double games against top talent. Didn't do it enough, but he did do it.
Click to expand...

I would also add that Colton was playing against the refs as well many games. He averages less fouls per game this year than he did his last year with the Gophers, even though he is playing over 10 more minutes a game now.
 

Colton showed me enough that I thought he could develop into a better than average big man. The fact that he's turned into an all-conference player somewhere else (admittedly a lesser league, but all conf nonetheless) shows me that he could start on a winning Big Ten team. Our team would be a heck of a lot better with him and Cobbs. (Yes, I know: :horse:)
 

Iverson was offered by Florida I believe, but not good enough for the big ten ? LOL. Izzo can get great minutes from NIX, who makes Iverson look quick. Iverson started with Sampson, not over him. No coach in his right mind plays 2 players that slow together. Twin tower days are over. Almost all big ten teams have been playing with a stretch 4 who can shoot to spread the floor.
 

GopherPlaya said:
BGA yes it is exactly what I am saying but I think the recruiting started off good but the off the court distractions made the staff go in another direction. The class with Paul, Devoe, Colton, Ralph, and Devron was a good class and Royce, Trevor, Justin and Rodney was a great class but with of the 9 guys only Ralph, Rodney, and Trevor stayed all the way through and Ralph was one of the softest big men I have ever seen. From what I heard Colton dominated Ralph at practice open gym and all but Ralph still got all the time while Coach Smith drained Colton's confidence. All those players who left and did well in different systems could have had great careers here.
Click to expand...

Thanks Playa. The Devron Bostick story was the first hint I got that there was trouble in Tubbyville. That kid came into summerball and took the league by storm playing with great energy and charisma and with a big smile on his face. Yeah- he wasn't a great defensive player but it seems nobody is in Tubby's defense in year one. As the first year went on you could see his confidence was gone. Here's a kid that was well suited for college buckets and had some star potential with the right attitude and coaching and it all went down the drain. By the time he left he was a shadow of what we saw that first summer. People will say- oh that's summer ball. Not in my view- you can tell who has talent in the Pulley league and he was a standout that summer.

As to the other guys- outside of Royce which was probably way out of Tubby's control- you know a program is in great shape when guys leave and you never hear from them again or they do very little. But when you have a parade of guys leave that get better after they do- that's a major concern. Colton, Devoe, Paul and Justin are 4 who did.
 

bga1 said:
As to the other guys- outside of Royce which was probably way out of Tubby's control- you know a program is in great shape when guys leave and you never hear from them again or they do very little. But when you have a parade of guys leave that get better after they do- that's a major concern. Colton, Devoe, Paul and Justin are 4 who did.
Click to expand...

Not that I am obsessed about numbers or anything, but here are the Big Ten standings for the second half of the season (not including the Big Ten tourney) and includes the years since Tubby has been here and includes the two games all teams have played this year.

Wis. 37-10
Pur. 33-14
Mich St. 31-16
Ohio St. 30-17
Mich. 26-21
I'll. 19-28
N'West. 19-28
Iowa. 17-30
Ind. 17-30
Penn. 17-30
Minn. 16-31

Neb. 2-9*. Only one season and this years two games, Neb included only from the standpoint that Neb wins and loses are in the numbers above.

Not a promising trend for the next 7 games.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.



Top Bottom