Tubby's lineup management and recruiting are failing.

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savagerube

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One of the my biggest concerns right now is that Andre Hollins is averaging 2.75 apg in the last 4 games. It's becoming painfully clear that several players are playing out of position. Andre is a shooting guard and unfortunately he's the only back court player the gophers have that can create his own shot. We all know Rodney is a 4. However, during the Wisconsin game, Rodney was hanging out to dry on the perimeter for much of the game.

In 5 years, Tubby has failed to recruit a PG and it's becoming a major issue with the team. Not since Al Nolan have the Gophers had a player that could drive and dish. Andre Hollins is great and Tubby should get some credit for his improvement. However, it's frustrating when we have all this talent but we're not utilizing it! It could be argued that Mbakwe, Williams and Dre Hollins are all playing out of position. Mbakwe is still performing but one could only imagine how much his game would improve with an adequate center and a true PG. In the B1G, the Gopher's can't have a PG that averages 2.75 assists over a 4 game span; especially with the athletes on this team.

Andre Hollins had 0 assists in Madison. No wonder why they put up only 44 points..
 

savagerube said:
One of the my biggest concerns right now is that Andre Hollins is averaging 2.75 apg in the last 4 games. It's becoming painfully clear that several players are playing out of position. Andre is a shooting guard and unfortunately he's the only back court player the gophers have that can create his own shot. We all know Rodney is a 4. However, during the Wisconsin game, Rodney was hanging out to dry on the perimeter for much of the game.

In 5 years, Tubby has failed to recruit a PG and it's becoming a major issue with the team. Not since Al Nolan have the Gophers had a player that could drive and dish. Andre Hollins is great and Tubby should get some credit for his improvement. However, it's frustrating when we have all this talent but we're not utilizing it! It could be argued that Mbakwe, Williams and Dre Hollins are all playing out of position. Mbakwe is still performing but one could only imagine how much his game would improve with an adequate center and a true PG. In the B1G, the Gopher's can't have a PG that averages 2.75 assists over a 4 game span; especially with the athletes on this team.

Andre Hollins had 0 assists in Madison. No wonder why they put up only 44 points..
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Andre may not be a "natural point guard" but he's going to be a great point guard before he leaves here and that is good enough for me. Should Tubby have recruited a better backup at point- on that I will agree. I think the bigger problem is Tubby's offense. I just don't think many point guards are going to look like point guards in this thing that he calls an offense. I have yet to find someone who thinks this offense is a good scheme- whatever it is.
 

savagerube said:
One of the my biggest concerns right now is that Andre Hollins is averaging 2.75 apg in the last 4 games. It's becoming painfully clear that several players are playing out of position. Andre is a shooting guard and unfortunately he's the only back court player the gophers have that can create his own shot. We all know Rodney is a 4. However, during the Wisconsin game, Rodney was hanging out to dry on the perimeter for much of the game.

In 5 years, Tubby has failed to recruit a PG and it's becoming a major issue with the team. Not since Al Nolan have the Gophers had a player that could drive and dish. Andre Hollins is great and Tubby should get some credit for his improvement. However, it's frustrating when we have all this talent but we're not utilizing it! It could be argued that Mbakwe, Williams and Dre Hollins are all playing out of position. Mbakwe is still performing but one could only imagine how much his game would improve with an adequate center and a true PG. In the B1G, the Gopher's can't have a PG that averages 2.75 assists over a 4 game span; especially with the athletes on this team.

Andre Hollins had 0 assists in Madison. No wonder why they put up only 44 points..
Click to expand...

I was thinking of starting a thread on this myself.

This is not to rip on the players, but just pointing out what it is.

Andre: He's a 2/combo guard......would be much more effective at the 2 with filling in at the pg.
Trevor: A natural 4.
Joe: The body and skill set of 6' 5 power forward trying to play the wing.
Rodney: Lacks the skills for a 3 and not quite physical enough for a 4 in Big Ten....... a tweener.
Austin: The only starter playing his true position.
 

station19 said:
I was thinking of starting a thread on this myself.

This is not to rip on the players, but just pointing out what it is.

Andre: He's a 2/combo guard......would be much more effective at the 2 with filling in at the pg.
Trevor: A natural 4.
Joe: The body and skill set of 6' 5 power forward trying to play the wing.
Rodney: Lacks the skills for a 3 and not quite physical enough for a 4 in Big Ten....... a tweener.
Austin: The only starter playing his true position.
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station19: The only commentor on GH who always states his true position.
 

bga1 said:
Andre may not be a "natural point guard" but he's going to be a great point guard before he leaves here and that is good enough for me. Should Tubby have recruited a better backup at point- on that I will agree. I think the bigger problem is Tubby's offense. I just don't think many point guards are going to look like point guards in this thing that he calls an offense. I have yet to find someone who thinks this offense is a good scheme- whatever it is.
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Full agreement.
 


station19 said:
I was thinking of starting a thread on this myself.

This is not to rip on the players, but just pointing out what it is.

Andre: He's a 2/combo guard......would be much more effective at the 2 with filling in at the pg.
Trevor: A natural 4.
Joe: The body and skill set of 6' 5 power forward trying to play the wing.
Rodney: Lacks the skills for a 3 and not quite physical enough for a 4 in Big Ten....... a tweener.
Austin: The only starter playing his true position.
Click to expand...

That's why "his best team ever" doesn't mean much to me. Some very good athletes but some have real holes in their games. That charge by Andre at the end of the game was awful. Not sure about being a great point guard before he leaves; he certainly isn't one now. Obviously, Tubby is the guy who recruited these players so it really doesn't matter if they're his best team ever.

I think one thing coming back to bite Tubby is his non-conference schedule. A couple of tough games, at least one on a hostile court, might have served this team a lot better instead of beating up on American and Lafayette at home. These games are coming down to two or three crucial plays at the end even with the stretches of bad play. They're simply not making those plays maybe because they haven't been in that position enough before? Not sure he has to schedule like Izzo, but you'd hope Tubby would look at it.

Still think they can right the ship but they damn well better start doing it tomorrow night.
 

When Rodney, Coleman, and Austin combine to shoot 1-40 or whatever it is the last few games, there aren't exactly many assist opportunities for Andre.

A point guard who can't shoot is not the problem with the offense.
 

Mulligan said:
That's why "his best team ever" doesn't mean much to me. Some very good athletes but some have real holes in their games. That charge by Andre at the end of the game was awful. Not sure about being a great point guard before he leaves; he certainly isn't one now. Obviously, Tubby is the guy who recruited these players so it really doesn't matter if they're his best team ever.

I think one thing coming back to bite Tubby is his non-conference schedule. A couple of tough games, at least one on a hostile court, might have served this team a lot better instead of beating up on American and Lafayette at home. These games are coming down to two or three crucial plays at the end even with the stretches of bad play. They're simply not making those plays maybe because they haven't been in that position enough before? Not sure he has to schedule like Izzo, but you'd hope Tubby would look at it.

Still think they can right the ship but they damn well better start doing it tomorrow night.
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You know the Gophers had a top 10 non conference schedule right?
 




Does anyone think it would be better to sit Rodney and play Trevor at the 4 and let either Eliason or Mo play center. Rodney doesn't seem effective at all lately at the 4 and hasn't developed into a wing player. Rodney can sub in for both Trevor and Joe for short periods.
 

CentralGopher said:
Does anyone think it would be better to sit Rodney and play Trevor at the 4 and let either Eliason or Mo play center. Rodney doesn't seem effective at all lately at the 4 and hasn't developed into a wing player. Rodney can sub in for both Trevor and Joe for short periods.
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For short periods? He would still play 30 minutes if he came off the bench.
 

station19 said:
I was thinking of starting a thread on this myself.

This is not to rip on the players, but just pointing out what it is.

Andre: He's a 2/combo guard......would be much more effective at the 2 with filling in at the pg.
Trevor: A natural 4.
Joe: The body and skill set of 6' 5 power forward trying to play the wing.
Rodney: Lacks the skills for a 3 and not quite physical enough for a 4 in Big Ten....... a tweener.
Austin: The only starter playing his true position.
Click to expand...

If Coleman and Rodney's funks continue it's possible that we may see:

Eliason - true center
Mbakwe- true 4
Austin - 2-3 natural either place in college (Pro 2)
Welch - natural 2 guard
Hollins- natural combo

So- it's certainly possible to put a good lineup out there with all guys that fit their positions (all but a few teams in the Big Ten would gladly start Dre at the point).

The lineup we have was the best one we could put out there in games where we could run. It may not be in half court- slow down Big Ten games.

Hollins was getting plenty of assists when we were playing faster. The problem remains- the offense. No movement, no real scheme.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
For short periods? He would still play 30 minutes if he came off the bench.
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I'm not sure he is worth that many minutes. He has been pretty ineffective. I can't see sitting Trevor to get Rodney in for 30. I also think Joe is more effective at the 3 than Rodney so how do you see him getting 30 minutes?
 



I would have to disagree. A true PG creates shots for teammates and this is not happening. Dre is a great shooter but he's not a facilitator. This is a problem with the offense because the only player who can create his shot is also the same player that's responsible for creating opportunities for others.
 

CentralGopher said:
I'm not sure he is worth that many minutes. He has been pretty ineffective. I can't see sitting Trevor to get Rodney in for 30. I also think Joe is more effective at the 3 than Rodney so how do you see him getting 30 minutes?
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Because hes the most athletic player on the team.
 

I pointed this out back in December in a thread (Random things that worry me) and got panned for being too negative.

Tubby and the Gopher nation are feeling the effects of not having a quality point guard on the roster. Tubby must have figured Ahanmisi and or Welch would have progressed more when he assembled this roster. But both Welch and Ahanmisi are over-matched against Big Ten quality opposition and Andre hasn't improved his ball-handling in the 17 months he's been on campus.

This season will be lost I'm afraid. There's no way any of the guys we have on the roster will improve enough between now and March.

If Tubby is able to keep his job, I would imagine his first order of business will be to recruit a juco PG who can take the pressure off of Andre. As it stands now, Tubby is basically asking Andre to be Tray Burke and Andre just isn't equipped with those ball-handling skills. Dre's left hand is particularly bad. He fumbles the ball almost half the time he switches to use his left.

There was a spot in the game on Saturday when Dre got the ball on the right wing and his defender was totally over-playing his right hand, which meant Dre could have taken 1 or 2 dribbles with his left hand and gotten into the paint...There was nobody stopping him. But he didn't have the confidence to make that move. Instead he killed 3 or 4 seconds outside the arc, passed the ball to Rodney at the top of the key and watched helplessly as Rodney brickd another shot, hard off the back iron. That play (late in the first half) was the Big Ten season in a nutshell.
 

tikited said:
[/B]


Full agreement.
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Agree as well about the offense. I get so frustrated watching guys stand around. Don't know if it's all about Tubby's offense or the guys just not executing at times. Probably a combination of both.

As for the scheduling, I don't think that can be an excuse this year. We played a pretty tough non-conference schedule. Even a lot of the lower level schools are pretty good for their league. I think most expected Florida St. to be a little better this year.
 

Moses87 said:
I pointed this out back in December in a thread (Random things that worry me) and got panned for being too negative.

Tubby and the Gopher nation are feeling the effects of not having a quality point guard on the roster. Tubby must have figured Ahanmisi and or Welch would have progressed more when he assembled this roster. But both Welch and Ahanmisi are over-matched against Big Ten quality opposition and Andre hasn't improved his ball-handling in the 17 months he's been on campus.

This season will be lost I'm afraid. There's no way any of the guys we have on the roster will improve enough between now and March.

If Tubby is able to keep his job, I would imagine his first order of business will be to recruit a juco PG who can take the pressure off of Andre. As it stands now, Tubby is basically asking Andre to be Tray Burke and Andre just isn't equipped with those ball-handling skills. Dre's left hand is particularly bad. He fumbles the ball almost half the time he switches to use his left.

There was a spot in the game on Saturday when Dre got the ball on the right wing and his defender was totally over-playing his right hand, which meant Dre could have taken 1 or 2 dribbles with his left hand and gotten into the paint...There was nobody stopping him. But he didn't have the confidence to make that move. Instead he killed 3 or 4 seconds outside the arc, passed the ball to Rodney at the top of the key and watched helplessly as Rodney brickd another shot, hard off the back iron. That play (late in the first half) was the Big Ten season in a nutshell.
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Panned? Is that like planking? ;)

I disagree that Andre hasn't improved his ball handling. Sure it's not where it needs to be, but his asst/turn is better this year. Last year he had more turnovers than assists. And 2.6 turnovers a game for a PG is not terrible by any means. If he can cut it down by .5 a game, he'll be at the same level as guys like Burke and Appling. In my opinion, Andre is too good at the "stop and pop" to not have him handle the ball. He reminds me a lot of Terrell Brandon in his T-Wolves days.
 

Moses87 said:
If Tubby is able to keep his job, I would imagine his first order of business will be to recruit a juco PG who can take the pressure off of Andre. As it stands now, Tubby is basically asking Andre to be Tray Burke and Andre just isn't equipped with those ball-handling skills. Dre's left hand is particularly bad. He fumbles the ball almost half the time he switches to use his left.
Click to expand...

I would think Tubby has been recruiting pg's all along........just hasn't succeeded.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Panned? Is that like planking? ;)

I disagree that Andre hasn't improved his ball handling. Sure it's not where it needs to be, but his asst/turn is better this year. Last year he had more turnovers than assists. And 2.6 turnovers a game for a PG is not terrible by any means. If he can cut it down by .5 a game, he'll be at the same level as guys like Burke and Appling. In my opinion, Andre is too good at the "stop and pop" to not have him handle the ball. He reminds me a lot of Terrell Brandon in his T-Wolves days.
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Andre has definitely improved his ball handling, but he is not close to Burke. He could still 'stop and pop'(and be a playmaker) if he moved to the 2. Worked well for Bobby Jackson....hell even Lindsey.

Andre also isn't quite quick enough to defend some of the quicker pg's. I believe sometimes Austin has taken that responsibility.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
You know the Gophers had a top 10 non conference schedule right?
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According to the RPI. Which is flawed and silly. If you're impressed by playing the 175th best team in America instead of the 275th best team, then absolutely - it was a real grinder. Otherwise, Minnesota didn't face much in the way of tough non-conference tests.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Because hes the most athletic player on the team.
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His athleticism hasn't really done much for us. He has had a few nice games against teams in the NIT and non-conference but as far as B1G goes he has been pretty ineffective as the 3 or 4. He may be athletic but hasn't show that his ball handling skills or shooting are any better than Joe's. He may be a better defender though. I'd trust Joe to shoot a 3 before I'd trust Rodney. I'd also rather see Joe drive the lane against a defender rather than Rodney. Don't get me wrong, I like Rodney and think he does some good stuff for us but he is ineffective in B1G play.
 

savagerube said:
One of the my biggest concerns right now is that Andre Hollins is averaging 2.75 apg in the last 4 games. It's becoming painfully clear that several players are playing out of position. Andre is a shooting guard and unfortunately he's the only back court player the gophers have that can create his own shot. We all know Rodney is a 4. However, during the Wisconsin game, Rodney was hanging out to dry on the perimeter for much of the game.

In 5 years, Tubby has failed to recruit a PG and it's becoming a major issue with the team. Not since Al Nolan have the Gophers had a player that could drive and dish. Andre Hollins is great and Tubby should get some credit for his improvement. However, it's frustrating when we have all this talent but we're not utilizing it! It could be argued that Mbakwe, Williams and Dre Hollins are all playing out of position. Mbakwe is still performing but one could only imagine how much his game would improve with an adequate center and a true PG. In the B1G, the Gopher's can't have a PG that averages 2.75 assists over a 4 game span; especially with the athletes on this team.

Andre Hollins had 0 assists in Madison. No wonder why they put up only 44 points..
Click to expand...

stop judging the entire year on games like wisky.

had tyus jones played, do you think he would have had a dozen assists against wisky?....
king tyus would have been "knocked off the ball" all day, gone o-for from the field, been posted up down low, etc. schooled.
tyus frustrated? yes
tyus resorted to arguing with the refs? probably.

also, i didn't see much O from wisky? if BO is so good with x's and o's ,were where their bunnies in the 1/2 court?
do you think they are ripping Bo this week because Bruiser scored 0, fouled out, and 'hasnt developed'???
 

CentralGopher said:
His athleticism hasn't really done much for us. He has had a few nice games against teams in the NIT and non-conference but as far as B1G goes he has been pretty ineffective as the 3 or 4. He may be athletic but hasn't show that his ball handling skills or shooting are any better than Joe's. He may be a better defender though. I'd trust Joe to shoot a 3 before I'd trust Rodney. I'd also rather see Joe drive the lane against a defender rather than Rodney. Don't get me wrong, I like Rodney and think he does some good stuff for us but he is ineffective in B1G play.
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I would say Rodney's 15 and 6 vs mich st was pretty solid and I also think he played pretty decent vs nu the first time with the exception of scoring. Rodney will be solid again he just needs to stop worrying about the officials and play. Rodney has played poor the last 4 games, but he i still think he and the team still have plenty of time to bounce back.
 

lakesgopher said:
I would say Rodney's 15 and 6 vs mich st was pretty solid and I also think he played pretty decent vs nu the first time with the exception of scoring. Rodney will be solid again he just needs to stop worrying about the officials and play. Rodney has played poor the last 4 games, but he i still think he and the team still have plenty of time to bounce back.
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Didn't play bad vs Indiana either. I think when he did the splits in that game is when he started to struggle.
 

Good points Johnny and lakes. I just think he and Trevor are out of position and they are lacking a true center in the starting 5. Thought a lineup change might be a good thing.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
Didn't play bad vs Indiana either. I think when he did the splits in that game is when he started to struggle.
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Rodney is fine when the game has pace to it and the score goes in the 70's and 80's. The slow, set offense game is tough on him and Coleman as well. It puts pressure on their outside shooting - which is not good- so opponents can play for the drive and take that away. MSU and Indiana were higher scoring games.
 

Tubby has his system/style, does it fit the Big Ten?.........Doesn't seem to.
 

Johnnyboy18 said:
You know the Gophers had a top 10 non conference schedule right?
Click to expand...

Again, beating American and Lafayette does absolutely nothing. Sorry, a good example of numbers lying. No matter what the numbers say, that non-conference schedule isn't so brutal that you have schedule that many cupcakes.
 

Mulligan said:
Again, beating American and Lafayette does absolutely nothing. Sorry, a good example of numbers lying. No matter what the numbers say, that non-conference schedule isn't so brutal that you have schedule that many cupcakes.
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+ 1000

I'd love to play the regional game with SD St, ND St, Iowa St, UNI, Drake and then schedule some serious competition like a home and home with Kansas, Mizzou, Kansas St, Butler....No more Lafayette's, which allow for the masses on this site to beat their chest and feel good about a 20 point win, but do nothing to get us ready for Big Ten play.

Why not take on the toughest schedule every year? More TV time, better recruiting advantages and eventually better prepared teams. Who cares if we go 9-4 in the non-conference?
 

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