Discussion with a friend tonight....

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ethomasp31

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Okay this is a thread for older fans who can remember the '97 Final 4 team. Who would you rather have....Rodney and Trevor or James and Thomas? I know my opinion....but I want to hear from those who were around and watched both sets of big men.
 

I was at school at the U in 97. I would take Rodney and Trevor. I think that Trevor is better than either of them, and Rodney is as good as well. Thomas was a nine point seven rebound guy, and James, who IMO was more talented, averaged about 10 and 6 I believe? Neither James or Thomas were good offensive players. Lots of put backs and dunks of BJ penetration or Harris passes. BUT - I will say that on the current team, I would take the 97 duo. But in terms of ability and overall talent I think the current duo is better.

Too bad we never got to see James play 2 more years. Could have been a big time player.

I say this as I realize I worshiped the 96-97 team and had so much fun with them when I was at school during that time.
 

gopherbadgerman said:
I was at school at the U in 97. I would take Rodney and Trevor. I think that Trevor is better than either of them, and Rodney is as good as well. Thomas was a nine point seven rebound guy, and James, who IMO was more talented, averaged about 10 and 6 I believe? Neither James or Thomas were good offensive players. Lots of put backs and dunks of BJ penetration or Harris passes. BUT - I will say that on the current team, I would take the 97 duo. But in terms of ability and overall talent I think the current duo is better.

Too bad we never got to see James play 2 more years. Could have been a big time player.

I say this as I realize I worshiped the 96-97 team and had so much fun with them when I was at school during that time.
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Pretty much agree with this.

Comparing this season and the 96-97 season:

Mbakwe vs. Thomas: http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=trevor-mbakwe&p1=12-john-thomas

Williams vs. James: http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=4-rodney-williams&p1=courtney-james

What I found very interesting was that Thomas averaged just 24 minutes a game as a senior.
 

Not even close right now. Hard to compare stats because perimeter guys (jackson, jacobson, lewis, etc) scored more, and there was a ton more depth. James and Thomas dominated inside defensively. They just punished other teams and eliminated any inside game. They also passed the ball really well - specifically James. Also, they always showed up, which I can't say for Rodney, and haven't been impressed by Trev the past two games. He's been way too lazy holding off his guy offensively in the post.

Anyway, I don't think it's close. Trev and Rodney have done nothing in the Big Ten yet. John and Courtney won it, played well consistently, and went to the final four. I really hope as the Big Ten season goes on I feel different.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Pretty much agree with this.

Comparing this season and the 96-97 season:

Mbakwe vs. Thomas: http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=trevor-mbakwe&p1=12-john-thomas

Williams vs. James: http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=4-rodney-williams&p1=courtney-james

What I found very interesting was that Thomas averaged just 24 minutes a game as a senior.
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I think that part of that was they blew out so many teams that he sat a lot. Also Lewis and Charles Thomas played a decent amount and when they went small James played C. Also Winter probably averaged about 10 min per game, and he and Thomas could not play on the floor at the same time...
 


Ozzy&Ray said:
Not even close right now. Hard to compare stats because perimeter guys (jackson, jacobson, lewis, etc) scored more, and there was a ton more depth. James and Thomas dominated inside defensively. They just punished other teams and eliminated any inside game. They also passed the ball really well - specifically James. Also, they always showed up, which I can't say for Rodney, and haven't been impressed by Trev the past two games. He's been way too lazy holding off his guy offensively in the post.

Anyway, I don't think it's close. Trev and Rodney have done nothing in the Big Ten yet. I really hope as the Big Ten season goes on I feel different.
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This is good. I don't think it's even close either.
 

Well that team had a much better supporting cast compared to what Trevor and Rodney have to work with...Charles Thomas, Quincy Lewis, Sam Jacobson, Trevor Winter, Bobby Jackson, and Eric Harris were much better than what there two big men are working with....I don't think it is close either and Mbakwe is way better than either Thomas or James....I agree that Williams is about the same as the other two.
 

Thomas was a legit 7'0" if I remember. You just don't see big men playing much more than 24 min. a game. They tend to require more rest than the more diminutive players. It was unbelievable that we had the luxury of bringing in the very serviceable backup in Winters. Gluttony of riches....
 

I have to disagree, ethomas, on Mbakwe. I don't think Mbakwe is the player Thomas was, and is not the offensive threat James was. Thomas was a first round draft choice, and was a dominant force on defense that Mbakwe hasn't been.

That being said, Mbakwe is really playing out of position right now - he is playing against other team's big man, when he really isn't. I don't see Mbakwe even getting drafted right now, at least not in the first round.

This team isn't close right now, in any way, to that team. Clem's club dominated on the perimeter and inside. I remember when they played Iowa with Woolridge (not sure that's his name) who was the preseason player of the year. Jackson and Harris physically dominated him. That happened inside and outside game after game.
 



Thomas was maybe 6'9. He wasn't close to a 7 footer. He had 500 career points in his NBA career, where he was journeyman at best.
 

James averaged 8 points a game in the Final 4 year...and he was a bigger offensive threat than Mbakwe?
 

I agree this team isn't as good as that team was, but it not because of the two big men....it has to do with Bobby Jackson, Sam Jacobson, Quincy Lewis, Charles Thomas, Eric Harris and others...it is not because Williams and Mbakwe aren't as good as Thomas and James.
 

I would take Thomas and James for their defense and the crazy thing is they were considered the supporting cast to Bobby J. If James hadn't beat up the stripper with the phone book or whatever he would've been a 1st round pick. That 97 team was deep at every position, two bench players played in the NBA
 



ethomasp31 said:
James averaged 8 points a game in the Final 4 year...and he was a bigger offensive threat than Mbakwe?
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Yes. James didn't need to score, but was more of a threat with the ball in his hands - passing, shooting, etc. Trevor gets more of his pts on out backs, although he has improved a ton over the years. Like I said earlier, it's difficult to compare stats with the different makeup a of the teams. Bottom-line - Trev and Rodney have accomplished nothing. And, in the two biggest games haven't played well. I don't care that Trevor had 13 points, he also gave up six points on a turnover and two poor efforts in the post that resulted in steals and layups.

I really hope they play well the rest of the year and I feel differently at the end of the year. However, right now they are 3-2. Thomas and James club was 16-2.
 

The Big Ten was a conference that had won three total NCAA tournament games the two previous years and that Minnesota team was the only Big Ten team that made it to the Sweet 16 in '95, '96, and '97. We won as many games in the tournament that year as the rest of the Big Ten did combined from '95-'97. Are you seriously going to compare the Big Ten back then to the Big 10 today where we have had 6 teams in the top 18 most of the year? That Gopher team lost to Wisconsin, illinois and Alabama I believe off the top of my head, this team has lost to 3 top 5 teams. You think that team would be 16-2 in the Big Ten this year? NOT A CHANCE!!!
 

Interesting topic. I think there's no doubt that Trevor/Rodney have more skill, but I don't think they are the players John and Courtney were. I think it's unfair to compare statistics not only due to the fact that the '97 team was loaded and guard oriented, but also because college basketball was simply much better at that time. With the rookie wage scale, everyone is leaving college after their mandatory one year and there are fewer and fewer elite talents who play 3-4 years in college.

I would say that Thomas/James defined what Clem Haskins basketball was: physical, tough, nasty. Those guys set the tone for how the game was going to be played and many teams just wilted against that physical play. It wasn't just rebounds and defense, but hard picks and some well placed elbows. That loss to Kentucky hurts so bad because there was simply no way that Gopher team (even without Eric Harris) would have lost to Arizona and it's slender big men...Thomas/James would have ate their lunch.

John Thomas was a first round pick and Courtney James almost certainly would have followed if he kept his head on straight (he had some monster games in the CBA). Also, if the Gophers had James in '98, they make another deep run in the tourney. Sam/Quincy were great that year, but we didn't have enough inside.

Would love to see Trevor/Rodney make this a tougher call by the end of the year.
 

1997 team was the best gopher team I have seen play since 1982. Best gopher team I have ever watched? 1976-77
 

EG#9 said:
Interesting topic. I think there's no doubt that Trevor/Rodney have more skill, but I don't think they are the players John and Courtney were. I think it's unfair to compare statistics not only due to the fact that the '97 team was loaded and guard oriented, but also because college basketball was simply much better at that time. With the rookie wage scale, everyone is leaving college after their mandatory one year and there are fewer and fewer elite talents who play 3-4 years in college.

I would say that Thomas/James defined what Clem Haskins basketball was: physical, tough, nasty. Those guys set the tone for how the game was going to be played and many teams just wilted against that physical play. It wasn't just rebounds and defense, but hard picks and some well placed elbows. That loss to Kentucky hurts so bad because there was simply no way that Gopher team (even without Eric Harris) would have lost to Arizona and it's slender big men...Thomas/James would have ate their lunch.

John Thomas was a first round pick and Courtney James almost certainly would have followed if he kept his head on straight (he had some monster games in the CBA). Also, if the Gophers had James in '98, they make another deep run in the tourney. Sam/Quincy were great that year, but we didn't have enough inside.

Would love to see Trevor/Rodney make this a tougher call by the end of the year.
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Well said.
 

Ethomas, great topic to start. Got me to post, which i almost never do. Question for you, and i dont mean for it to sound like a smarta... Did you watch the 1997 team, or just going by stats?

16-2? Who knows, but that "team" was a great "team". Thomas and James did exactly what Clem needed them to do, dominate inside physically, game after game. I haven't seen that consistency from Rodney and Trevor. I hope I do as the year goes on, and would love to feel differently at the end of the year.
 

ethomasp31 said:
I agree this team isn't as good as that team was, but it not because of the two big men....it has to do with Bobby Jackson, Sam Jacobson, Quincy Lewis, Charles Thomas, Eric Harris and others...it is not because Williams and Mbakwe aren't as good as Thomas and James.
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This. I would side with the '97 in most comparisons to this squad. But John Thomas and Courtney James were arguably the 4th and 5th best starters on that team. Mbakwe is at least as talented as Thomas and while Rodney and Courtney James are very different players, I'd take Rodney any day.
 

XMan said:
1997 team was the best gopher team I have seen play since 1982. Best gopher team I have ever watched? 1976-77
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Interesting, but I would have to go with:
#1 77.......that team was really good.
#2 97.......they did go to the final four....sorry Dpo
#3 82.......Big Ten Champs....too bad they lost Hall and Rautins or...........
#4 13.......at this point. We'll see what happens....could go up, could go down.
 

station19 said:
Interesting, but I would have to go with:
#1 77.......that team was really good.
#2 97.......they did go to the final four....sorry Dpo
#3 82.......Big Ten Champs....too bad they lost Hall and Rautins or...........
#4 13.......at this point. We'll see what happens....could go up, could go down.
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I hope this team is even #4. Right now 89-90 with Willie and company is ahead of this group. Finished well in the Big Ten and Elite Eight. Would love to see that out of this squad.
 

station19 said:
Interesting, but I would have to go with:
#1 77.......that team was really good.
#2 97.......they did go to the final four....sorry Dpo
#3 82.......Big Ten Champs....too bad they lost Hall and Rautins or...........
#4 13.......at this point. We'll see what happens....could go up, could go down.
Click to expand...

I would put the 1990 team ahead of this team. Coming off a Sweet 16 year the expectations were very high and we came one shot away from a Final Four. The 1990 team had six players play in the NBA: Willie, Coffey, Lynch, Martin, Newborn and Bond.

Go Gophers!!
 

ethomasp31 said:
Okay this is a thread for older fans who can remember the '97 Final 4 team. Who would you rather have....Rodney and Trevor or James and Thomas? I know my opinion....but I want to hear from those who were around and watched both sets of big men.
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Haven't read any other's opinions yet, but I'd say Rodney and Trevor. Thomas and James were both bigger bodies but neither was a reliable scorer. Then again Mbakwe and Williams aren't exactly lighting it up every night either. I just like the athleticism both bring which neither Thomas or James had. Trevor has played pretty good defense for us so far this year as well. so I'll stick with what we have.

We'd likely win a title if you could swap out Joe Coleman for Bobby Jackson, but any top 10 team could do the same with a former star...
 

Trev and Rodney I would take over Thomas and James. Focus wise, you got a 100 % every night from the 97 team. My son attended 4 of Clem's St. Thomas camps as a youngster. The shorts they issued said " play hard " on the seat of the pants. Same as what the team wore during their practice sessions. I'm not accusing Trev and Rodney of not playing hard, but there are gaps in concentration and focus in regards to the game plan. JMO, a Clem coached team would not have lost to Michigan last Thursday. Defensive lapses, blocking out is a lack of focus. Clem wasn't the consummate X and O guy, he left the game plan to ass't coach Al Brown, but Clem knew how to get kids ready for big games at the Barn
 

I watched every minute of every game that year...and listened to the Alabama game on WCCO. If you put Mbakwe and Williams on that team and take off James and Thomas that '97 team would have been better. Again, I'm not making the argument about which team is better, but I'm looking at the two big men. That team had Bobby Jackson who was the best college player I've seen play for the Gophers, and I go back with a good memory of the 1980 team which had McHale as a senior, Brewer as a freshman, Mitchell, Tucker, Hall and Holmes that lost in the NIT Finals to Virginia led by freshman Ralph Sampson and Jeff Lamb. John Thomas might have played in the NBA, but he was a journeyman at best. None of those guys had very successful careers in the NBA from that team. Bobby Jackson's was by far the best but he mainly came off the bench for most of his career.
 

Ozzy&Ray said:
I hope this team is even #4. Right now 89-90 with Willie and company is ahead of this group. Finished well in the Big Ten and Elite Eight. Would love to see that out of this squad.
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BleedGopher said:
I would put the 1990 team ahead of this team. Coming off a Sweet 16 year the expectations were very high and we came one shot away from a Final Four. The 1990 team had six players play in the NBA: Willie, Coffey, Lynch, Martin, Newborn and Bond.

Go Gophers!!
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I was toying with the 90 team also. They may have very well been better than the current team but again, we'll have to see about the current team. Stay tuned.

As far as 97 vs 13:

Trevor & Rodney vs Thomas and James:
Trev and Rodney are better athletes but James and Thomas may have been a little stronger. Trevor is really a 4, not a 5. Case could be made for either combo.
ADVANTAGE--Even

Perimeter players:
Outside shooting.....Awfully close - current team has improved from last year.
Ball handling.......Advantage 97 - still a major weakness of current team.
Defense........Advantage 97 - especially with Jackson(BTPY).

Bench:
Spot the current team 25 pts and the 97 team would still kick their butt.

Overall:
Advantage...97
 

The 89-90 team is very similar to this team. The year before they were a surprise Sweet 16 team in a very good Big Ten Conference. Almost as good as this years conference. Illinois had Kendall Gill, Battle, Bardo and maybe even a young Marcus Liberty when they lost in the Final 4 (I think that might have been one of their few loses with Gill) and Michigan won it all. It was the year when Bill Frieder left for Arizona State right before the tournament and Bo said a Michigan man is going to coach Michigan. The Gophers got a break when a high seed was upset in the first round, but we were only 9-9 in the Big Ten that year and like a 10 seed I think. The Big Ten wasn't as good in 89-90 and the Gophers lost a few times on their homecourt, so to say that Haskins team wouldn't have lost to a top 3 team in the country is assuming a lot. Haskins lost plenty of times at William (HAHA) Arena.

BTW, I was born in 1966 and was at Williams in '76 when the Gophers gave the last undefeated team (Indiana) a good game and almost pulled an upset. Michael Thompson had little pom pom balls on his shoes, and I'll never forget it. I was a big fan of the Gophers at that time, but didn't have the understanding of basketball as I did around '80 when the gophers lost to Virginia in the NIT Finals. I watched older brothers play basketball (between 72-77) when I was between 5 and 10 and kept score for every game they played as juniors and seniors. The last two years I kept shot charts as a 9 and 10 year old for every shot taken on the court and circled the ones made. So yes, I was around in '97 and '90 and '82 and '80 and even in '77. But I didn't understand things as well until 1980. BTW, Rautins only played one year in that great 1978 class before transferring to Syracuse. Oh, the funny thing is, I remember high school basketball very well from the '70's. Probably because that is what I was paying attention to more. I can remember watching Mark Oberding from Melrose at the state tournament in the early to mid 70's and even Kevin McHale losing to Jefferson in the championship game in '76. There was also a Griffith or Griffin kid who played at St. Paul Central or a Minneapolis school in the late '70's who was very good. His first name was might have been Andre...does anybody remember him...
 

On last thing...I wasn't saying this team is as good as the '97 team. I like both Hollins and Coleman, but the backcourt in '97 was quite a bit better than this backcourt, and that is mainly because Bobby Jackson was so good. But besides that team having Jacobson, Jackson and Harris, they also had a bench of Charles Thomas, Quincy Lewis and Trevor Winter. They were much stronger than this bench. The only positions where this team matches up well against them is upfront with Mbakwe and Williams against James and Thomas. One last thing....without Bobby Jackson, that team is nothing special and would have finished right around the middle of a weak and watered down Big Ten. Heck, the year before they got killed by Tulane at Williams arena in the NIT with pretty much the same team.
 

Does anyone here think the '13 team was exposed as not having a consistently productive inside threat - like the '97 team - enabling the consistent outside threats room to operate?

'97 in a landslide right now. And I love Rodney's game. He would benefit big time with a bruising John Thomas or even Trevor Winter. TM is missing something right now. He had a bad first half vs. Michigan, despite his final stats. Shot blocking is better on this team. Toughness is not. "How to win" is not.
 

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