The bench

Exciting win, great game played by a lot of Gophers tonight. But not all was good, and there are reasons for a little concern. The starters were great tonight and have been all year. The problem from my standpoint is that, had they needed help, this game may have had a different result. What I saw from the bench tonight:

Elliot was shaky with the ball. But he doesn't concern me. His game is strength and hustle, and I have a lot of confidence in his ability to play a lot of good minutes on most nights. I'd like to see him get more minutes before he starts hanging his head.

Oto played some solid minutes again. It's not clear to me why he's not getting more playing time right now, especially when Rodney begins to tune out a bit - seems to me Rodney has a tendency to get lost sometimes. In those cases, I have a lot of confidence in Oto spelling him some minutes, though I'd rather see Oto on the floor with other starters as opposed to the line change thing. Both Oto and Elliot are a coaches dream in terms of how hard they play every minute they're on the floor.

The rest of the bench is where I get a bit concerned.
Ingram can bring a good deal of energy, but every time he touches the ball I feel like he's a turnover waiting to happen. Ingram will play some good minutes for the Gophers before the year is out, but I'd be worried if at some point (injury or foul trouble) he needs to be relied upon in a close game.
Mav has had a few really shaky games in a row, and it appears that he has no confidence at this time and can't stop from making poor decisions. His shot and FT shooting have been pleasant surprises this year, but his role is as a ballhandler, and he's struggling there. He needs to shake off his rust and get his confidence back before playing any significant minutes; however exactly when is the next place in the schedule to do this? Mav should see little playing time the rest of January, after which hopefully an ease in the schedule may allow him to get some good playing time.
Mo is doing very little for this Gophers team. He doesn't move, rebound, move his feet to defend, or catch the ball, he can't score against guys half his size, and worst of all he doesn't look like he's exerting much effort. I understand his injury is tough to come back from, particularly for a big man, but at this point he shouldn't see the floor the rest of this season except in junk time. His +/- ratio is awful - every time he's on the court the Gophers lose ground, and I'd argue the Gophers are playing 4 on 5 when he's in the game right now.
Finally there's Welch - I haven't ever had much confidence in Julian - he often doesn't seem to play very hard, sometimes seems disinterested, and turns the ball over often with suspect decision making. But then you'll see him play some solid minutes, like he did against Mich. St., and his solid minutes tonight were simply invaluable with Dre in foul trouble and Mav shaky. He has a decent skill set...if he just exerted more effort on the floor he'd see that floor more often.

If I were Tubby, for the foreseeable future I'd limit the team to an 8-man rotation in big games - the 5 starters with some significant minutes given to Eliason, Oto, and Welch. Ingram should see a little playing time as well, as needed here and there. And perhaps Wally should see the floor if he can prove that he has the whole offensive and defensive schemes down - certainly he displays athleticism, but I'm not convinced he's familiar with the schemes yet. I like Mav but Welch should be the prime backup for Dre right now. And Mo simply should not step on the floor outside of junk time.

Thoughts?

Zero bench points tonight and we still won with relative ease. Zero bench points won't happen again IMO

I think the bench was shaken by the tough crowd on the road.

The bench players did what they should do...hold the fort down during the game while the studs get a break, and they did just fine at that, as our Gophers were much fresher in the last 5 minutes than the Illini were, hence the beatdown.

Yep, this was as poor a collective performance by our bench as I can remember. These guys are going to have games like that. Tonight everyone off the bench pretty much sucked. Bad game for all of them at once, unlikely to happen again. Looked like first Big Ten game on the road was a factor for Maverick and Ingram especially. But it wouldn't surprise me if all of them made contributions in the next game.

Off topic, but a person doesn't know who's going to go off with this team: Andre's 41 point game, Joe tonight, Austin raining 3's last game, Trevor taking over a game. Maybe Rodney will explode against Indiana. Playing well, but no monster game or even stretches yet from him. Can't wait for Saturday!

Mulligan said:

Off topic, but a person doesn't know who's going to go off with this team: Andre's 41 point game, Joe tonight, Austin raining 3's last game, Trevor taking over a game. Maybe Rodney will explode against Indiana. Playing well, but no monster game or even stretches yet from him. Can't wait for Saturday!

Click to expand...

I'd like to see Rodney get back that initiative like he had at the end of last season, particularly in the NIT stretch. He showed he has that ability to get to the rim; this year he's been back to being more passive again though. While the rest of his game has improved since last year, I'd like to see him start attacking the rim again. If he starts busting out and the bench provides a bit more depth, the sky's really the limit for this team.

cncmin said:

I'd like to see Rodney get back that initiative like he had at the end of last season, particularly in the NIT stretch. He showed he has that ability to get to the rim; this year he's been back to being more passive again though. While the rest of his game has improved since last year, I'd like to see him start attacking the rim again. If he starts busting out and the bench provides a bit more depth, the sky's really the limit for this team.

Click to expand...

Agree about Rodney. He's simply not playing as he was earlier in the season when he was getting close to the rim on drives and hitting the floater as well as making a few outside jumpers. Right now he's not even making his free throws.

Speaking of not making his free throws, I'd feel OK about having Ingram out there in conference games if I knew he could knock it down from the stripe. A couple missed free throws is essentially a turnover.

Mo was almost completely ineffectual tonight. I know he's recovering and only a sophomore, but I expected more from him.

cncmin said:

I'd like to see Rodney get back that initiative like he had at the end of last season, particularly in the NIT stretch. He showed he has that ability to get to the rim; this year he's been back to being more passive again though. While the rest of his game has improved since last year, I'd like to see him start attacking the rim again. If he starts busting out and the bench provides a bit more depth, the sky's really the limit for this team.

Click to expand...

I think the difference is last year he knew he had to kind of take over in order for the team to win. This year he doesn't really have to (at least not tonight), but I agree. I hope he plays more aggressively going forward.

Against Northwestern 3 days ago, the bench scored 22 while Trevor scored 4 and Coleman 6, Dre with 7.

The point? Any given night, it can be anybody's night. Maverick, EE, Welch, Ingram have all logged big minutes in big games over the last two seasons. I'm not concerned about the depth on this team one single iota. Period.

"The bench players did what they should do...hold the fort down during the game while the studs get a break, and they did just fine at that"

You obviously weren't watching Elliott, Maverick or Mo as they were absolutely terrible tonight.

Bad Gopher said:

Mo was almost completely ineffectual tonight. I know he's recovering and only a sophomore, but I expected more from him.

Click to expand...

I didn't think he'd be this bad either. But I also thought the pie-in-the-sky predictions about his impact by some coming into this year were unwarranted and premature.

Looking at the box score, our 6 bench players combined for 0 Points, 3 Rebounds, 2 steals and 6 turnovers. Pretty darn impressive we won by 17 with those numbers.

Hopefully Elliott can shake off this performance quickly. We are going to need solid minutes from him on Saturday. He can protect the rim and is a good match up with Zeller.

34Gopher said:

Looking at the box score, our 6 bench players combined for 0 Points, 3 Rebounds, 2 steals and 6 turnovers. Pretty darn impressive we won by 17 with those numbers.

Click to expand...

According to ESPN.com game recap facts the Gophers' 84 points by their starters ties for the most points this season when all of the points are scored by the starters. Odd stat, but so was the Gophers' box score.

Good news is this is a wake up call for the bench ( and that we won despite an abysmal bench game ). They can't play any worse against IN and hopefully they improve.

I think eventually Wally gets into the rotation a bit more. He's athletic enough to play on the wing the way Tubby likes (more athetic) and he can knock down a shot.

That said, I don't mind Tubby cutting th bench minutes down on the road at Illinois. We are going to need more out of them some games like the NWesten game, but some guys we are going to have to rely on our studs. I will say though, I thought the bench looked tad better tonight than their stats showed. I liked how none of the bench players seemed to break up the chemistry (besides the hockey subs), they didn't take many shots (which is perfect when our stars are shooting lights out).

34Gopher said:

Looking at the box score, our 6 bench players combined for 0 Points, 3 Rebounds, 2 steals and 6 turnovers. Pretty darn impressive we won by 17 with those numbers.

Click to expand...

Exactly. Not much to complain about considering how good our starters played. I'm beginning to think we may have some of the best starting 5 in the nation. Mbakwe being healthy changes the whole dynamic.. I wouldn't mind seeing a rematch with Duke with our starting five playing like they are..

I wanted to keep my thoughts in the game thread positive, but I agree that the bench was awful tonight. Maverick, Elliott, Mo, and Andre all had multiple really bad plays that hurt this team. I think it took the 5 subs until their 4th possession to even get up a shot when they entered the game in the first half. I do think Julian came in and at least settled things down after Maverick's meltdown in the 2nd half.

The only thing that concerns me about Elliott is that he's no threat at all on the offensive end of the floor and Big Ten teams seem to have recognized that fact. It's going to be tough to run any of that high low stuff with Elliott out high when the defender knows he's no threat to score.

Is it possible that Mo is 25 to 50 lbs overweight at this point in his 22 month recovery?

He looks real slow and real flabby out there and I hope his knee is solid. It is hard to push it when your knee is not right, but he does not look real fit or comfortable out there.

I know if i ever blow out my knee, I will be lifting weights like crazy and sticking to a real rigid food intake plan. I'd probably be riding a bike 30 miles a day as well one my ACL recovered as well, Basketball or no Basketball. What does the Staff have Mo doing?

It looks like big MO has been left to his own plan, and the results are so so.

silky said:

Hopefully Elliott can shake off this performance quickly. We are going to need solid minutes from him on Saturday. He can protect the rim and is a good match up with Zeller.

Click to expand...

He is really just a liability on the court right now, unfortunately. Crazy to think he goes from starter to being placed behind Mo on the pecking order. Hope he can bounce back Saturday because he didn't look ready to go tonight.

Remember who you're quoting there. Of course it didn't make sense. The overall play of our bench was absolutely horrendous. I still find it odd when people talk about us having such a deep team. We have an amazing top 5 and then there's huuuge dropoff. I don't know what is up with Welch and his shot this year but if he starts to resemble his old self I have huge expectations for us if we remain healthy. As bad as he's been this year (although he's been better lately), I'd still like to see him sub in at pg before Mav. When quick guards play Mav tight he's a turnover waiting to happen and we can't run the offense. Ingram and EE are similar situations (TO waiting to happen) if there isn't an easy pass available. I was pretty relieved to see Tubby at least add Trevor to the second line. I thought the substitutions were pretty perfect. The surge from the rested line 1 returning offsets the line 2 play

CDH27 said:

"The bench players did what they should do...hold the fort down during the game while the studs get a break, and they did just fine at that"

You obviously weren't watching Elliott, Maverick or Mo as they were absolutely terrible tonight.

Click to expand...

What alarmed me the most about EE is the series that went TO-Travel, TO-mishandled pass, TO-Illegal screen. Three consecutive possessions. That can kill a team when one teammate does this and the rest stop trusting him with the ball. It changes the flow of the offense and makes other players do things they should not or cannot.

Wrong....they didnt hold the line. Illinois went on an 8-0 run. Elliot was terrible. 4 turnovers and i see he didnt see the floor the rest of the game. Bench was very disappointing.

Dr.Don said:

The bench players did what they should do...hold the fort down during the game while the studs get a break, and they did just fine at that, as our Gophers were much fresher in the last 5 minutes than the Illini were, hence the beatdown.

Click to expand...

First B1G road game and with a lot of national attention seemed to affect the poise of all of the bench members except Welch. When Tubby recognized those jitters, and after providing some necessary rest, the second team was summarily pulled. Looked like solid coaching to me.

Interesting question is the Gophers needed the IL win on the road to solidify team's national standing. With this win accomplished, there is less pressure against IN on the road. How will the Gopher's respond? Winning one of next two would satisfy the street. Winning both would make the Gophers top 5 baby.

gopher1more said:

What alarmed me the most about EE is the series that went TO-Travel, TO-mishandled pass, TO-Illegal screen. Three consecutive possessions. That can kill a team when one teammate does this and the rest stop trusting him with the ball. It changes the flow of the offense and makes other players do things they should not or cannot.

Click to expand...

And what did Dre say to EE on the bench? "It's alright"

I haven't been able to see every game this year but Mo worries me. Has he made a basket this year yet or does he get stuffed every time? I don't think I have ever seen an attempt by him that hasn't been blocked. Is he seriously that slow?

Illinois had a strategy that they would immediately double Andre, EE and Mo as soon as they got the ball. It clearly worked but maybe worked too well as it forced Tubby to keep them on the bench.

Kudos to Welch for coming in as a third option and playing well. Likely earned more minutes last night. I would have got Oto in a little bit more and probably gone to EE instead of Mo- he doesn't appear to be game ready.

That said people on the Gopherhole have long been critical of too deep a dench. Tonight it got shortened and now we complain about not enough bench?

The bench was bad. But should a 7' sophmore bench player be handling the ball outside of the box ever? Yes he has to improve. One of those turnovers was someone throwing him a bounce pass about shin high. I think the bench is at its always been, sometimes great, sometimes not, the difference is every one of our starters can look like an all conference player any game.

march madness said:

The bench was bad. But should a 7' sophmore bench player be handling the ball outside of the box ever? Yes he has to improve. One of those turnovers was someone throwing him a bounce pass about shin high. I think the bench is at its always been, sometimes great, sometimes not, the difference is every one of our starters can look like an all conference player any game.

Click to expand...

I blame that play on welch, it was a high post situation and welch soft come to get the ball but ee needs to stop playing scared and start playing with confidence

cncmin said:

According to ESPN.com game recap facts the Gophers' 84 points by their starters ties for the most points this season when all of the points are scored by the starters. Odd stat, but so was the Gophers' box score.

Click to expand...

That's cause Duke got 2 points from their bench when they put 89 up on us lol.

I'm not that worried cause your bench guys are bench guys for a reason. They are not as good as the starters. More importantly, when you play tough road games, your stars usually determine who's gonna end up winning that game. Your bench guys can excel at home, but then look shaky at best on the road. The six turnovers are a problem, they can't be careless with the ball, no doubt. As long as they take care of the ball and play solid defense, they'll be alright, and USUALLY, they do that.

The most concerning one to me is Eliason, simply cause he was a starter and he's been used to these situations in that position before, but to me it's apparent he's not as comfortable coming off the bench. But even so, there will be games when we'll be like "Oh man, so glad we had Eliason in this game", cause that's the nature of a basketball season, you're gonna have highs and lows.