Chicken or the egg theory, Gopher style

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Ogee Ogilthorpe

Ogee Ogilthorpe

Over Macho Grande?
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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that one of the major problems with the Gophers' offense this year is a lack of a consistent scoring threat in the paint. Essentially, if teams don't have to respect the post, the Gophers just don't get open looks on the perimeter.

So this begs the question; What is the main reason the Gophers have a hard time feeding the post? Do the Rodents just not have enough guys that are adept at delivering the ball to Sampson and Iverson?

OR, are Sampson and Iverson just not effective enough or experienced enough to establish good position, maintain it, and present a good target for the pass?

In the games I've watched where I've paid attention to this, it sure seems like Sampson and Iverson have a tough time getting good position and an even tougher time keeping it. They're freshmen, and not particularly bulky, so this isn't all that shocking. They get pushed off the block a lot, plain and simple.

I think this will be a huge key this offseason; these two guys learning how to post up and make themselves available, present a good accessible target for the post pass. This will go a LONG ways towards determining just what kind of a season the Gophers have next year, and beyond. The newcomers will be nice, but a consistent post threat will be HUGE in getting the shooters good looks.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Do the Rodents just not have enough guys that are adept at delivering the ball to Sampson and Iverson?

OR, are Sampson and Iverson just not effective enough or experienced enough to establish good position, maintain it, and present a good target for the pass?
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Yes.

Bingo and bingo.
 

I think it's the freshmne inside. But I've seen improvement. They need to be a little quicker and aggressive with the ball too so that the D feels it needs to cheat in a little. Plus recognizing the open man to punish the collapse will help too. So going with weak link I would say it has more to do with the inexperience of the post kids than the feeders.
 

The frosh front-line is coming along fine and will be exceptional next year. The problem is the perimeter play. No consistancy and no players that can take-over a game when needed to. I look for Joseph to be the main #2 guard next year. Just my thoughts.
 

The big men have defintley had a tough time with post positioning. But I still blame the perimeter players. Even when Colt 45 or Sampson get position, they rarely get the rock. The guard either can't feed the post, or won't. I think it's a combination of both. Hoff is the only guy that consistently looks to get the ball down low. Westbrook, Devoe, and Nolen are more than happy with just moving the ball around the perimeter. FEED THE BIG MEN!
 


Ogee Oglethorpe said:
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that one of the major problems with the Gophers' offense this year is a lack of a consistent scoring threat in the paint. Essentially, if teams don't have to respect the post, the Gophers just don't get open looks on the perimeter.
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To tell the truth, I've thought that it's the exact opposite. The inside game is suffering because opponents don't respect our outside threats.

Johnson, Carter, and Sampson are getting wide open looks on anything beyond 15 feet as teams have figured out that they are not a threat there. Nolen seems to have lately given up taking the open three, but (and this really surprised me) he is second on the team for in-conference 3p% (.343 on 12-35).

I think scoring in the post has been adequate this year and could be pretty darn good next year with Iverson and Sampson having a year under their belt. One caveat here is the Sampson does almost all his scoring when he's at center ... his scoring as a PF is non-existent.
 

It's not really chicken or egg to me in this situation. It's kinda one of those perfect storm of factors coming together to contribute to this issue we have. The low post guys are young, do not demand the ball, and sometimes struggle with positioning and keeping it. The perimeter guys have struggled with their shooting this season. When you have both of those elements working together, it can lead to problems. If perimeter guys were hitting at a, say 38-40% clip from downtown, suddenly the post would open up more. If the low post guys were a little older, stronger, and more polished, you'd see the perimeter open up and maybe that would create a little more space to get open looks from there. Confidence also plays a large role here.
 

I think that our post guys have improved a lot at getting position inside. Also, once they do get the rock, they both are very good at converting. They both have a lot of room for improvement in terms of getting better positioning.

However, the guards have done a piss poor job of feeding them the ball. I mean, Sampson is a better passer to Iverson when compared to the guards. I noticed a play on Saturday when Sampson had good positioning and it was cleared out on his side. Nolen had the ball on that side and did not even look at Sampson..he was too focused on finding another guard to pass to...
 

Our guards need to protect the ball. With the exception of Blake, LW, Devoe, and AN all are suspect with the ball. With the amount of TO's these guards bring to this team each game, it's no wonder there's a lack pounding the ball to Ralph, Colton, & Damian. Yes, Ralph & Colton are young and not as strong as they will be, but I put most of the blame on our weak guard play especially their lack of protecting the ball.
 



Chicken? Egg?

Count me in as an egg guy – meaning that it has to start with a strong inside game. Coaching 101 is that you start there and work your way out. Not a huge knock on the Colt and RS3. They are freshman after all. So Tubby has had to work with what he’s got and that’s very young and relatively weak frontcourt. If I was coaching against MN, that’s the first thing that I’d design my game plan around. Let the Gophers shoot from the outside until it starts to work.

I do agree that they are related. But in my view strength inside yields looks outside.

Now, how’s that view played out in real life. I don’t think so well, in that both of the bigs got better as the season went on, but outside shooting never seemed to improve – or at least on par with the inside improvement.

Good thing Tubby’s the coach not me.
 

Rouser said:
However, the guards have done a piss poor job of feeding them the ball. I mean, Sampson is a better passer to Iverson when compared to the guards. I noticed a play on Saturday when Sampson had good positioning and it was cleared out on his side. Nolen had the ball on that side and did not even look at Sampson..he was too focused on finding another guard to pass to...
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That's funny. I wonder if we sit near each other. That exact play happened right in front of me, and I couldn't believe it. Nolen dribbling (of course) near the baseline and facing half court looking to pass to the top of the key while Sampson is wide open underneath. Didn't even look at him.
 

Mikie S said:
To tell the truth, I've thought that it's the exact opposite. The inside game is suffering because opponents don't respect our outside threats.

Johnson, Carter, and Sampson are getting wide open looks on anything beyond 15 feet as teams have figured out that they are not a threat there. Nolen seems to have lately given up taking the open three, but (and this really surprised me) he is second on the team for in-conference 3p% (.343 on 12-35).

I think scoring in the post has been adequate this year and could be pretty darn good next year with Iverson and Sampson having a year under their belt. One caveat here is the Sampson does almost all his scoring when he's at center ... his scoring as a PF is non-existent.
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Sampson has taken a bunch of 15 footers and never hit one in my memory. However, his shot form is good as evidenced by his FTs and I would bet that he starts canning a lot of 12 -15 footers and even some 3s next year. He could become a major scoring threat if he does.
 

Sampson & Iverson

One thing that has become clear this season is that our three freshmen all have great futures ahead of them. Our two big young fellas', especially, have very high ceilings. As they continue to develop, get stronger, they're both going to become beasts in the Big 10. What's nice is they're bigs with different skill sets.
 



We need to do what Ohio St. did against Northwestern the other day. Against the 1-3-1 Mullins was able to run the baseline and get 4-5 easy layups. I think Iverson could do the same thing if we would just watch a little bit of tape.
 

I think the young big men have done all we could reasonably expect. Unfortunately, our guards aren't great at getting them the ball. Sampson is better at feeding the post than our point guard. The problem is that feeding the post is not something that takes talent, just correct technique. With how far out teams have been fronting guys, we should be good for several dunks a game from each of our interior players from good passes over the top. This is another area Nolen struggles in.
 

bga1 said:
Sampson has taken a bunch of 15 footers and never hit one in my memory. However, his shot form is good as evidenced by his FTs and I would bet that he starts canning a lot of 12 -15 footers and even some 3s next year. He could become a major scoring threat if he does.
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Actually I had included the exact same thing in my original post (along with a couple other observations like: "I don't think Carter ever will develop a touch" & "DJ, forget the three ... work on a mid-range shot for next year") but I erased that part.
 

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