what we just saw was the "folly" of senior day

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Bronko Nagurski Gopher

Bronko Nagurski Gopher

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i don't care if it was senior day folks. when you have what is likely a must-win game to ensure yourself a trip to the ncaa's (which is what all team's are playing for) there is no reason to play jonathon williams the amount they did today and not even have colton iverson touch the court. we dominated michigan in the paint almost the entire game, but almost every time jonathon williams touched the ball you knew it was likely going to result in a turnover or badly missed shot.

sampson had a field day against michigan's post players. you are trying to tell me that sampson and iverson in there together today as opposed to sampson and williams did not make a huge difference on the outcome of the game?! not having iverson out there was probably at minimum 8-10 points off the board for minnesota which was far more than the difference in the game.

we handed this game to michigan as a result of giving a guy in williams legitimate post minutes who has not earned them based on his level of play regardless of the fact he is a senior.

very frustrating. :mad:
 

Bronko Nagurski Gopher said:
i don't care if it was senior day folks. when you have what is likely a must-win game to ensure yourself a trip to the ncaa's (which is what all team's are playing for) there is no reason to play jonathon williams the amount they did today and not even have colton iverson touch the court. we dominated michigan in the paint almost the entire game, but almost every time jonathon williams touched the ball you knew it was likely going to result in a turnover or badly missed shot.

sampson had a field day against michigan's post players. you are trying to tell me that sampson and iverson in there together today as opposed to sampson and williams did not make a huge difference on the outcome of the game day?! not having iverson out there was probably at minimum 8-10 points off the board for minnesota which was far more than the difference in the game.

we handed this game to michigan as a result of giving a guy in williams legitimate post minutes who has not earned them based on his level of play regardless of the fact he is a senior.

very frustrating. :mad:
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Normally I'd fully agree with you, but Williams did ok on the offensive end. He failed on the baseline jumper and interior help defense. Abu-Shamala had a nice game and helped open up our short-lived big lead. It's too bad he's not a better passer or had a quicker step on defense, he should have been able to help this year with outside shooting and hustle play.
 

cncmin said:
Normally I'd fully agree with you, but Williams did ok on the offensive end. He failed on the baseline jumper and interior help defense. Abu-Shamala had a nice game and helped open up our short-lived big lead. It's too bad he's not a better passer or had a quicker step on defense, he should have been able to help this year with outside shooting and hustle play.
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williams did "okay" today? come on! you are joking right?! there really is no need to make excuses for his level of play. there are some high school juniors & seniors who could have done better than williams in the post today.

i didn't say anything bad about JAS in my post. his name was not mentioned. he was the one senior who actually did play "okay" today.
 

Seniors

I dont think playing the seniors caused us to lose this game. Collectively not making any 3's had more to do with it.
 

Section201 said:
I dont think playing the seniors caused us to lose this game. Collectively not making any 3's had more to do with it.
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Collectively not continuing to drive to the basket caused us the game.
 


Williams did play way to many minutes IMO, but that had nothing to do with starting him or not.
 

Have to disagree with you, Bronko....Williams did a lot better than you give credit for. I felt he did well with some 'little' things --- screening (he actually has some bulk to put on a defender!), seal his player behind him to allow better inside/outside ball movement.

Granted, he is not an offensive threat, I felt he did as well as Iverson would have done. That being said, I still would like to have seen Colt45 in the game at some point.

On another note - what happend to Busch? Did he even touch the floor? He is another guy that seems to be in the right spot at teh right time more times than not & brings more to the table than even you, Bronko, would appreciate.
 

Westbrook playing out of control and Johnson not being fully into the game when he was out there were the two biggest reasons we lost. Williams did get way too many minutes, but I don't think it cost us the game.
 

Would have to agree Bronko

Way to important of a game for them to be playing that much, Oh well hope they enjoyed there playing time probably has cost them. Allot of work needed to get in now. On the positive side maybe we can meet Kentucky in the NIT and get waxed by them.
Lets start looking forward to next year, Again!
 



GOLDY1966 said:
Have to disagree with you, Bronko....Williams did a lot better than you give credit for. I felt he did well with some 'little' things --- screening (he actually has some bulk to put on a defender!), seal his player behind him to allow better inside/outside ball movement.

Granted, he is not an offensive threat, I felt he did as well as Iverson would have done. That being said, I still would like to have seen Colt45 in the game at some point.

On another note - what happend to Busch? Did he even touch the floor? He is another guy that seems to be in the right spot at teh right time more times than not & brings more to the table than even you, Bronko, would appreciate.
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How many of Sims points were on Williams, and his three horrible turnovers? What did he do right?
 

GOLDY1966 said:
Have to disagree with you, Bronko....Williams did a lot better than you give credit for. I felt he did well with some 'little' things --- screening (he actually has some bulk to put on a defender!), seal his player behind him to allow better inside/outside ball movement.

Granted, he is not an offensive threat, I felt he did as well as Iverson would have done. That being said, I still would like to have seen Colt45 in the game at some point.

On another note - what happend to Busch? Did he even touch the floor? He is another guy that seems to be in the right spot at teh right time more times than not & brings more to the table than even you, Bronko, would appreciate.
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then we must not have been watching the same game. disagree.

williams has no real scoring touch. that was a problem as we could have scored at will in the post today. case in point: how many consecutive baskets did we get in the paint during long stretches of the game today? answer is "a lot". even the espn guys made note of this. get iverson in there as well and it is probably a field day between him and sampson.

so iverson's similar bulk to williams plus his better athleticism and actual ability to score would have far exceeded what williams was able to bring to the game today in screening and/or allowing inside to outside ball movement, which didn't matter anyways since we weren't hitting outside shots as usual.
 

SDGopherFan said:
Way to important of a game for them to be playing that much, Oh well hope they enjoyed there playing time probably has cost them. Allot of work needed to get in now. On the positive side maybe we can meet Kentucky in the NIT and get waxed by them.
Lets start looking forward to next year, Again!
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don't understand the logic or the point behind this part of your post other than trying to be a smart-ass? what?
 

We caught lightning...................

in a bottle when Jon did OK in the first half. No way should he have been in there with 5 minutes to go, unless it's pre arranged not to pass him the ball.
 




Bronko Nagurski Gopher said:
then we must not have been watching the same game. disagree.

williams has no real scoring touch. that was a problem as we could have scored at will in the post today. case in point: how many consecutive baskets did we get in the paint during long stretches of the game today? answer is "a lot". even the espn guys made note of this. get iverson in there as well and it is probably a field day between him and sampson.

so iverson's similar bulk to williams plus his better athleticism and actual ability to score would have far exceeded what williams was able to bring to the game today in screening and/or allowing inside to outside ball movement, which didn't matter anyways since we weren't hitting outside shots as usual.
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Hmmmm...I think Jonathon has some bulk on Iverson. I would have still liked to have seen Iverson, but it seems like Ivo's screens never do anything. Perhaps I am only remembering one or two screens that J-Will set, but I appreciated them nonetheless.

I agree with you regarding J-Will's scoring touch. Again, perhaps I am only remembering a handful of nice postups and kick outs, but it seems like he has more meat on him to keep his defender pinned.

What about Busch? Am I the only one who appreciates his 'Dusty-ness'? :)
 

Busch definitely should have gotten some of Williams's minutes. He would have still had a height advantage on Novak.
 


Stoodabaker said:
Iverson was unavailable today. He hurt his shoulder in practice.
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Maybe...but in Tubby's post-game comment it sounds like he could've easily played:

On Colton Iverson not playing in today’s game:

“Colton could have made a difference, but Michigan is a three point shooting team, and we dominated the boards without Colton, so I’m not sure what else he could have contributed today. Michigan doesn’t have a true center in DeShawn Sims, and Colton has a tough time defending the perimeter. Colton banged his shoulder pretty hard going after a loose ball in practice yesterday; he could have played, but it’s good to give him a rest."
 

Stoodabaker said:
Iverson was unavailable today. He hurt his shoulder in practice.
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is there anywhere that one can one verify if that is true or not? did not hear anything about it from the espn crew before/during/after or anywhere on this site leading up to the game. if in fact he was injured in practice it likely would have leaked out prior to the game.
 

Bronko Nagurski Gopher said:
is there anywhere that one can one verify if that is true or not? did not hear anything about it from the espn crew before/during/after or anywhere on this site leading up to the game. if in fact he was injured in practice it likely would have leaked out prior to the game.
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That is what the coach said postgame.

He needed a rest? That is a bit troubling.
 

The only problem with the premise is that the gophers pulled away early with the two seniors in. And it was only after Michigan erased the lead in the second half when Tubby put them back in to see if they couldn't change things up a bit. So while it's an easy target it really isn't an argument that works well with the way the game played out.
 

Schnoodler said:
The only problem with the premise is that the gophers pulled away early with the two seniors in. And it was only after Michigan erased the lead in the second half when Tubby put them back in to see if they couldn't change things up a bit. So while it's an easy target it really isn't an argument that works well with the way the game played out.
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we pulled away early? am i missing something? if i am not mistaken we went into half-time only up by 4pts. not sure if i would call that pulling away. it was not until early in the second half that we got up by 10-12pts and then williams somehow found his way back onto the floor.
 

right but we were up by six when these guys came out. then the regulars (if you can call them that) went sideways. It was curious too me as I expected what you are proclaiming, but the oddity is that even though we seemed better when the regulars came in we didn't seems to make much headway as the less talented bunch. You'll have to watch it again. It was strange.
 

Bronko Nagurski Gopher said:
is there anywhere that one can one verify if that is true or not? did not hear anything about it from the espn crew before/during/after or anywhere on this site leading up to the game. if in fact he was injured in practice it likely would have leaked out prior to the game.
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The 'CCO broadcast team covered Iverson's injury; they knew about it before the game.
 

I have a hard time with Tubby's comments, if Colton couldn't have added anything, what in the world was he thinking Williams could contribute?
 

Yeah...placing blame on playing the seniors is misguided IMO. They actually provided quite the spark. Yes, Big Jon made a couple mistakes, but c'mon, it ain't like he flopped out there, he played decent. He wasn't the reason for this loss. Losing three point shooters, being scared to shoot on offense, and just plain lack of poise cost us.

And let's face it, Colt 45's dropped off as the season progressed. The guy is wearing down. I really don't think he makes a large difference here considering the things he does well were done well in this game anyway. Would he be covering the three point shooters down the stretch?
 

Monty519 said:
Yeah...placing blame on playing the seniors is misguided IMO. They actually provided quite the spark. Yes, Big Jon made a couple mistakes, but c'mon, it ain't like he flopped out there, he played decent. He wasn't the reason for this loss. Losing three point shooters, being scared to shoot on offense, and just plain lack of poise cost us.

And let's face it, Colt 45's dropped off as the season progressed. The guy is wearing down. I really don't think he makes a large difference here considering the things he does well were done well in this game anyway. Would he be covering the three point shooters down the stretch?
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i wasn't concerned about williams defense. it was his lack of scoring vs. what colton iverson likely would have provided in concert with sampson that made the difference in the end (i.e. we only lost by three points). as i mentioned above i think colt likely has anywhere from 8-12 points today in addition to what sampson was able to throw down. those missing points from the floor were huge in the end.
 

I don't know there Bronk. That's being pretty generous for 16 minutes. If Colt score 8-12 it's probably instead of another scorer not in addition to. I'm not sure the +/- would have been much different. It's just something we'll never know. And it doesn't matter, Williams didn't hurt us, and C45 was unavailable.
 

Bronko Nagurski Gopher said:
i wasn't concerned about williams defense. it was his lack of scoring vs. what colton iverson likely would have provided in concert with sampson that made the difference in the end (i.e. we only lost by three points). as i mentioned above i think colt likely has anywhere from 8-12 points today in addition to what sampson was able to throw down. those missing points from the floor were huge in the end.
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Colt is averaging 5.7 points per game this season, and scored 6 points in the teams' previous meeting. What evidence is there he would drop 8-12 points with a bum shoulder that apparently bothered him enough to make it worthwhile keeping him out? I just don't think that was a factor in this game.
 

Monty519 said:
Colt is averaging 5.7 points per game this season, and scored 6 points in the teams' previous meeting. What evidence is there he would drop 8-12 points with a bum shoulder that apparently bothered him enough to make it worthwhile keeping him out? I just don't think that was a factor in this game.
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He didn't miss a shot in the first game when the team intentionally avoided going inside (or so it seemed).

He would have had at least eight shots, and he could have hit half of them.
 

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