When Tubby "forgot" how to coach

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balds

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9-22 before he got here.

2007-08: Exact same team, plus two freshman = 20-14 (8-10) Inks a highly rated recruiting class. Man, can this guy coach!

2008-09: 22-10 (9-9) including a win over eventual #1 seed Louisville. Signs another highly rated class including the states top two rated players. Future looks bright.

2009-10: 21-13 (9-9) despite losing Nolen for the second half of the season. Wins include final 4 teams Butler and Michigan St., as well as Wisconsin and Ohio St.

2010-11 Starts out 16-4 (5-3) with wins against North Carolina, West Virginia and Purdue.

It is at this point, I believe, that Tubby Smith forgot how to coach.

All sarcasm set aside, The "Tubby Can't coach" drum that people have been beating is absurd. Imagine every Big Ten team without their starting PG. Now imagine every Big Ten team without their best front court player. That is the harsh reality he's dealt with the past two seasons, compounded by the untimely transfers of Cobbs and Joseph. That and Royce White's transfer have basically set us back a few years. Despite playing 4 Freshman, 3 Sophomores, 2 Juniors (1 Juco) and getting nothing from his lone Senior most of the year, he's had us in nearly every game in a season where people rave that the Big Ten is the best conference in the nation.

That is all, tee off.
 

You're right the head coach simply is given the roster he has he has no input in the depth or transfer aspects. Fire the GM!
 

balds said:
9-22 before he got here.

2007-08: Exact same team, plus two freshman = 20-14 (8-10) Inks a highly rated recruiting class. Man, can this guy coach!

2008-09: 22-10 (9-9) including a win over eventual #1 seed Louisville. Signs another highly rated class including the states top two rated players. Future looks bright.

2009-10: 21-13 (9-9) despite losing Nolen for the second half of the season. Wins include final 4 teams Butler and Michigan St., as well as Wisconsin and Ohio St.

2010-11 Starts out 16-4 (5-3) with wins against North Carolina, West Virginia and Purdue.

It is at this point, I believe, that Tubby Smith forgot how to coach.

All sarcasm set aside, The "Tubby Can't coach" drum that people have been beating is absurd. Imagine every Big Ten team without their starting PG. Now imagine every Big Ten team without their best front court player. That is the harsh reality he's dealt with the past two seasons, compounded by the untimely transfers of Cobbs and Joseph. That and Royce White's transfer have basically set us back a few years. Despite playing 4 Freshman, 3 Sophomores, 2 Juniors (1 Juco) and getting nothing from his lone Senior most of the year, he's had us in nearly every game in a season where people rave that the Big Ten is the best conference in the nation.

That is all, tee off.
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It takes passion. You have to recruit, get and keep players that fit what your scheme is and you have to be able to motivate them. Tubby hasn't forgotten anything. The question is whether or not he still has the interest level and ability to motivate and connect with the players. Is he engaged enough to go out and get the players he needs for his system? We'll find out what he has put together and how much energy he has left next year. This is the last mullligan.
 


I struggle to believe he won a National Championship.
 


The thing that is frustrating for fans is that the best we have to show for our first two recruiting classes is one season of Mbakwe.

The past two recruiting classes have been quite uninspiring. That combined with our unwatchable offensive schemes provide little hope for this fan base. It appears as though this program is headed in the opposite direction that everyone wants it to go.
 

He didn't forget how to coach but quite possibly has lost the drive and desire to put in the effort at
all of the little things required to stay at the top of your game. He also appears to be having a hard time if even trying to relate to the young players of today. Just because you were successful in the past doesn't mean that success continues in perpetuity, just ask guys like Bobby Knight, Bobby Bowden, etc.
 

GopherGod said:
He didn't forget how to coach but quite possibly has lost the drive and desire to put in the effort at
all of the little things required to stay at the top of your game. He also appears to be having a hard time if even trying to relate to the young players of today.
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I would love to see proof of this.

I'm sure by knowing and having the respect all of the best coaches in America, as well as attending several coaching clinics, NCAA meetings, and national charity events, he hasn't gotten any tips on dealing with the whippersnappers of today.
 

CrocShots said:
I would love to see proof of this.

I'm sure by knowing and having the respect all of the best coaches in America, as well as attending several coaching clinics, NCAA meetings, and national charity events, he hasn't gotten any tips on dealing with the whippersnappers of today.
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I never said it was a fact. However he does have an unusually high number of transfers and of the "trouble makers" who transferred not a single one has had problems at their new schools. Apparently their new coaches are able to get them to follow the rules where Tubby failed. How do you explain the high number of transfers and the stellar behavior under other coaches. Oh and the fact that he has not been able to recruit the caliber of player you would expect from an accomplished coach who clearly still has it as you seem to think he does. Guess what Bobby Knight, Bobby Bowden, and other coaches past their prime went to many of those same conferences as well and it didn't help them. Tubby knows what to do but may not WANT or cannot do what is necessary to compete at a high level today and woo today's players.
 



I've stuck up for Tubby for awhile. To me personally, I'm going to wait and hold my Tubby negativity until next year. The transfers and injury's have sucked, so I'm sort of giving him a mulligan.

After next year, with us being jr and sophomore driven team (and Rodney maybe), I will want Tubby to leave if we don't solidly make the NCAA tournament.
 

captain.hindsight said:
After next year, with us being jr and sophomore driven team (and Rodney maybe), I will want Tubby to leave if we don't solidly make the NCAA tournament.
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Agree with the AD limbo we have to stick with Tubby for another year, if the team fails to make the Tourny next year he should be gone.
 

GopherGod said:
I never said it was a fact. However he does have an unusually high number of transfers and of the "trouble makers" who transferred not a single one has had problems at their new schools. Apparently their new coaches are able to get them to follow the rules where Tubby failed. How do you explain the high number of transfers and the stellar behavior under other coaches. Oh and the fact that he has not been able to recruit the caliber of player you would expect from an accomplished coach who clearly still has it as you seem to think he does. Guess what Bobby Knight, Bobby Bowden, and other coaches past their prime went to many of those same conferences as well and it didn't help them. Tubby knows what to do but may not WANT or cannot do what is necessary to compete at a high level today and woo today's players.
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No one here knows if White's or Joseph's coach has anything to do with them staying out of trouble. It's ridiculous to assume their coaches are the primary reason they've "gotten their act together" and/or Tubby was a big reason they got in trouble while they were here. It could be true but it's just as believable that both guys needed to get a fresh start and probably learned from their mistakes.

As for the recruits, I think that's just not accurate. He has recruited talented players, just haven't been able to keep them all here.
 

GopherGod said:
He didn't forget how to coach but quite possibly has lost the drive and desire to put in the effort at
all of the little things required to stay at the top of your game. He also appears to be having a hard time if even trying to relate to the young players of today. Just because you were successful in the past doesn't mean that success continues in perpetuity, just ask guys like Bobby Knight, Bobby Bowden, etc.
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Well put.
 



GophersInIowa said:
No one here knows if White's or Joseph's coach has anything to do with them staying out of trouble. It's ridiculous to assume their coaches are the primary reason they've "gotten their act together" and/or Tubby was a big reason they got in trouble while they were here. It could be true but it's just as believable that both guys needed to get a fresh start and probably learned from their mistakes.

As for the recruits, I think that's just not accurate. He has recruited talented players, just haven't been able to keep them all here.
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Never said that their new coaches were the "primary reason" they have gotten their act together. Just stated that they have followed the rules and stayed out of trouble which they did not under Tubby and curious why that might be. As to your second point, I think it is okay to question when a coach continuously has his recruits transfer out at an alarming rate. It ultimately falls on the head coach to correctly judge which recruits can and will be here for the long haul to help the program.
 

captain.hindsight said:
I've stuck up for Tubby for awhile. To me personally, I'm going to wait and hold my Tubby negativity until next year. The transfers and injury's have sucked, so I'm sort of giving him a mulligan.

After next year, with us being jr and sophomore driven team (and Rodney maybe), I will want Tubby to leave if we don't solidly make the NCAA tournament.
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Same here. A lot of impatient people around these parts.
 

GopherGod said:
Just stated that they have followed the rules and stayed out of trouble which they did not under Tubby and curious why that might be.
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You don't know that. You have two programs that are desparately trying to establish themselves. Hoiberg will take any castoff in hopes of finding success in a cultural wasteland. Oregon just opened a brand new arena and has Joseph for one semester. They could easily be looking the other way.
 

GopherGod said:
He didn't forget how to coach but quite possibly has lost the drive and desire to put in the effort at
all of the little things required to stay at the top of your game.
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So no proof?
 

Maximus said:
So no proof?
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Never said I did, just like you have no proof that Oregon is or would look the other way or that Hoiberg would take any castoff. Most of a message board is a speculative in nature and it helps foster discourse.
 

GopherGod said:
Never said that their new coaches were the "primary reason" they have gotten their act together. Just stated that they have followed the rules and stayed out of trouble which they did not under Tubby and curious why that might be. As to your second point, I think it is okay to question when a coach continuously has his recruits transfer out at an alarming rate. It ultimately falls on the head coach to correctly judge which recruits can and will be here for the long haul to help the program.
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Well, when you say things like this:
Apparently their new coaches are able to get them to follow the rules where Tubby failed
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I tend to believe you think Tubby was a big reason for them not following the rules.
 

GophersInIowa said:
Well, when you say things like this:


I tend to believe you think Tubby was a big reason for them not following the rules.
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I never said primary or big reason, this is your deal if you're reading more into it. Just stated that they haven't been getting into trouble like they did under Tubby and curious why that is?
 

This is pure conjecture, but I wonder how much of jettisoning the players running a foul came from the Athletic Department and the standards Joel set, or even direct orders from the Athletic department itself? Remember All the hubbub behind Mbakwe's criminal case and his inability to play. I'm not sure.
 

CrocShots said:
This is pure conjecture, but I wonder how much of jettisoning the players running a foul came from the Athletic Department and the standards Joel set, or even direct orders from the Athletic department itself? Remember All the hubbub behind Mbakwe's criminal case and his inability to play. I'm not sure.
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Bingo. Maturi = "Trevor Mbakwe you can't play"; "Royce White you can't play"; "Jimmy Williams you can't coach".
 

My 0.02

Point 1: The attrition (departures and injuries) have been something that I think virtually any coach would have had difficulty overcoming. With the services of even HALF of the players that have at one point been on the roster, this team would have been upper half of the Big Ten in every one of Tubby's years here. Those that say that "we should be able to overcome an injury to one player", etc. are just plain ignorant. It's been multiple injuries and even more departures. The departures may or may not be some of Tubby's doing. That's for a different discussion.

Point 2: With the above being said, I couldn't be more disappointed with the apparent lack of identity offensively and the propensity for turnovers. Those two things (among others) are coaching, plain and simple. A coach of Tubby's pedigree should not have teams near the top of the Big Ten in turnovers/game, in almost every year that he's been at Minnesota. That's just plain unacceptable. They have also never been a respectable rebounding team either, which could also largely be attributed to coaching.

With minimal to no "significant" departures expected between now and next fall, and only losing RSIII, I expect them to be very competitive next year. No NCAA tourney next year and I will be FULLY on the "Fire Tubby" bandwagon. They have a ton of young returning talent next year, with or without Trevor (I'm not holding my breath). It's hard to believe that Mo Walker has essentially not played a Big Ten game in the two years he's been at MN. Yikes.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
My 0.02

Point 1: The attrition (departures and injuries) have been something that I think virtually any coach would have had difficulty overcoming. With the services of even HALF of the players that have at one point been on the roster, this team would have been upper half of the Big Ten in every one of Tubby's years here. Those that say that "we should be able to overcome an injury to one player", etc. are just plain ignorant. It's been multiple injuries and even more departures. The departures may or may not be some of Tubby's doing. That's for a different discussion.

Point 2: With the above being said, I couldn't be more disappointed with the apparent lack of identity offensively and the propensity for turnovers. Those two things (among others) are coaching, plain and simple. A coach of Tubby's pedigree should not have teams near the top of the Big Ten in turnovers/game, in almost every year that he's been at Minnesota. That's just plain unacceptable. They have also never been a respectable rebounding team either, which could also largely be attributed to coaching.

With minimal to no "significant" departures expected between now and next fall, and only losing RSIII, I expect them to be very competitive next year. No NCAA tourney next year and I will be FULLY on the "Fire Tubby" bandwagon. They have a ton of young returning talent next year, with or without Trevor (I'm not holding my breath). It's hard to believe that Mo Walker has essentially not played a Big Ten game in the two years he's been at MN. Yikes.
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Great post I hope this is a post most of the board can agree on, this is the middle ground. Tubby gets one more year to make the Tourny.
 

goldengophers said:
Great post I hope this is a post most of the board can agree on, this is the middle ground. Tubby gets one more year to make the Tourny.
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Yup. I'd agree with his post. Make the tourney. And win a game and he is set. We've never made the tourney that many times under one coach and haven't won a tourney game in 21 years. Do that and Tubby is fine IMO.

At the very least, I'd expect much improvement over this year.

SOS should be much better next year with Atlantis and hopefully some wins get us a nice tournament resume.
 

balds said:
9-22 before he got here.

2007-08: Exact same team, plus two freshman = 20-14 (8-10) Inks a highly rated recruiting class. Man, can this guy coach!

2008-09: 22-10 (9-9) including a win over eventual #1 seed Louisville. Signs another highly rated class including the states top two rated players. Future looks bright.

2009-10: 21-13 (9-9) despite losing Nolen for the second half of the season. Wins include final 4 teams Butler and Michigan St., as well as Wisconsin and Ohio St.

2010-11 Starts out 16-4 (5-3) with wins against North Carolina, West Virginia and Purdue.

It is at this point, I believe, that Tubby Smith forgot how to coach.

All sarcasm set aside, The "Tubby Can't coach" drum that people have been beating is absurd. Imagine every Big Ten team without their starting PG. Now imagine every Big Ten team without their best front court player. That is the harsh reality he's dealt with the past two seasons, compounded by the untimely transfers of Cobbs and Joseph. That and Royce White's transfer have basically set us back a few years. Despite playing 4 Freshman, 3 Sophomores, 2 Juniors (1 Juco) and getting nothing from his lone Senior most of the year, he's had us in nearly every game in a season where people rave that the Big Ten is the best conference in the nation.

That is all, tee off.
Click to expand...

This is a good summarization of the years, my concern is that there has been a dropoff on the defensive end of the court. Tubby's defense was really tough with Danny boys recruits, I haven't seen the same thing with his recruits. Nolen, Westbrook, and Hoffarber performed really well under his system, I'm not seeing the same level of success with the current perimeter players. Hopefully it is because they are young, I just don't see the same aggressiveness though.
 

jovs said:
This is a good summarization of the years, my concern is that there has been a dropoff on the defensive end of the court. Tubby's defense was really tough with Danny boys recruits, I haven't seen the same thing with his recruits. Nolen, Westbrook, and Hoffarber performed really well under his system, I'm not seeing the same level of success with the current perimeter players. Hopefully it is because they are young, I just don't see the same aggressiveness though.
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Al and Damian were awesome on D. It was great.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
They have also never been a respectable rebounding team either, which could also largely be attributed to coaching.
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Minnesota is tied for 3rd in the Big Ten in rebounding margin (+3.2) with Wisconsin.
 


dpodoll68 said:
Minnesota is tied for 3rd in the Big Ten in rebounding margin (+3.2) with Wisconsin.
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This is true. And in all fairness, they were very good on the glass last year, looking back at the stats. Reading the post, the rebounding comment was clearly an afterthought, but your point is correct, nonetheless.

But they are 11th in Defensive Reb % (only ahead of Northwestern). Good on the offensive glass, horrendous on the defensive glass.

Last year they were dead last in Turnover Margin, 11th. This year they are again 11th (ahead of only Nebraska) in TO Margin. With so many games decided by just a few baskets, that's a LOT of empty possessions.
 

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