Season unfolding as predicted.

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Block M

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Somewhere there is a thread in which we were asked to predict the Gophers B1G record (post Mbakwe). I thought Gophers would win 10-11 games with Mbakwe, but predicted a 7-11 record w/o him. I think we'll win 6 or 7.

Yes, the season disappointing; but lets not forget we lost our leading scorer and rebounder and a slam-dunk first team all B1G player and likely first round NBA pick (before injury, obviously). Things are playing out about as expected w/o the best player. Yet, there is a Flip-freaking-Saunders thread and apparently the geniuses in the local media are beating the same drum. Are you kidding me? Tubby has this team in great shape if not for a freak injury to our best player.

The challenge now is to support this team (and coach) through this difficult time. The nucleus of this team MUST REMAIN INTACT, or things will go south, and rapidly so. The best way to keep this group together is to support them, unconditionally.
 

Block M said:
Somewhere there is a thread in which we were asked to predict the Gophers B1G record (post Mbakwe). I thought Gophers would win 10-11 games with Mbakwe, but predicted a 7-11 record w/o him. I think we'll win 6 or 7.

Yes, the season disappointing; but lets not forget we lost our leading scorer and rebounder and a slam-dunk first team all B1G player and likely first round NBA pick (before injury, obviously). Things are playing out about as expected w/o the best player. Yet, there is a Flip-freaking-Saunders thread and apparently the geniuses in the local media are beating the same drum. Are you kidding me? Tubby has this team in great shape if not for a freak injury to our best player.

The challenge now is to support this team (and coach) through this difficult time. The nucleus of this team MUST REMAIN INTACT, or things will go south, and rapidly so. The best way to keep this group together is to support them, unconditionally.
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+1
 

You mean the same player we had last year when we won 6 Big Ten games? We also lost Hoff and Iverson and gained Oto, Andre and EE and Welch.

I did not see one expert that picked us to win 10 games, much less 11. Of course this is an annual ritual with Tubby touters. Excuses for losing and wait until next year.

If Rodney and TM are back next year and TM is a big if, the team will improve somewhat for one year, then what? Where is the talent of all of these young players? EE looks pretty good and Dre is ok, but he is NOT a pg. After that, meh. The recruiting class next year is rated 7th and will be 8th once OSU starts recruiting. Yep, everything is roses and violets at Williams Arena. Let's extend Tubby for another 5...make it an even dozen years.
 

minngg said:
You mean the same player we had last year when we won 6 Big Ten games? We also lost Hoff and Iverson and gained Oto, Andre and EE and Welch.

I did not see one expert that picked us to win 10 games, much less 11. Of course this is an annual ritual with Tubby touters. Excuses for losing and wait until next year.

If Rodney and TM are back next year and TM is a big if, the team will improve somewhat for one year, then what? Where is the talent of all of these young players? EE looks pretty good and Dre is ok, but he is NOT a pg. After that, meh. The recruiting class next year is rated 7th and will be 8th once OSU starts recruiting. Yep, everything is roses and violets at Williams Arena. Let's extend Tubby for another 5...make it an even dozen years.
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+1
 

minngg said:
You mean the same player we had last year when we won 6 Big Ten games? We also lost Hoff and Iverson and gained Oto, Andre and EE and Welch.

I did not see one expert that picked us to win 10 games, much less 11. Of course this is an annual ritual with Tubby touters. Excuses for losing and wait until next year.

If Rodney and TM are back next year and TM is a big if, the team will improve somewhat for one year, then what? Where is the talent of all of these young players? EE looks pretty good and Dre is ok, but he is NOT a pg. After that, meh. The recruiting class next year is rated 7th and will be 8th once OSU starts recruiting. Yep, everything is roses and violets at Williams Arena. Let's extend Tubby for another 5...make it an even dozen years.
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Yep your right because trevor played last year and they won 6 games that means this year he wouldn't of helped at all, great logic! Your crazy if you think that all the close losses the gophers have had trevor wouldn't have made a difference.
Also Joe Coleman goes into the "meh" category for you? What.do you expect out of freshman?
 


minngg said:
You mean the same player we had last year when we won 6 Big Ten games? We also lost Hoff and Iverson and gained Oto, Andre and EE and Welch.

I did not see one expert that picked us to win 10 games, much less 11. Of course this is an annual ritual with Tubby touters. Excuses for losing and wait until next year.

If Rodney and TM are back next year and TM is a big if, the team will improve somewhat for one year, then what? Where is the talent of all of these young players? EE looks pretty good and Dre is ok, but he is NOT a pg. After that, meh. The recruiting class next year is rated 7th and will be 8th once OSU starts recruiting. Yep, everything is roses and violets at Williams Arena. Let's extend Tubby for another 5...make it an even dozen years.
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Out of the Gopher's 9 losses in the B1G, the average loss was by a margin of 9.1 PPG; two of which were in overtime. Now you're trying to tell me that Mbakwe wouldn't of had a significant impact in all of those losses with the exception of Purdue and Michigan State? You scan these threads day in and day out to look for any excuse to put a negative spin on a post that's intended to shed a little light on positivity. When you claim that "Tubby lovers" are looking into the future and it's always about next year, you're doing the same exact thing when you're looking for ANY excuse to be negative. People like you ruin Gopherhole plain and simple. If this is how you get your rocks off, I honestly feel bad for you.
 

Julian Welch is an adequate replacement for Al Nolen so, yes, Mbakwe makes a huge difference this year. Last year the Gophers had serious issues when Nolen went down, especially on the defensive end.
 

gopher000 said:
Yep your right because trevor played last year and they won 6 games that means this year he wouldn't of helped at all, great logic! Your crazy if you think that all the close losses the gophers have had trevor wouldn't have made a difference.
Also Joe Coleman goes into the "meh" category for you? What.do you expect out of freshman?
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He doesn't believe players improve year to year. How they are as freshman is how they will always play. Once you hit 18 your basketball career and talents are set for life.

Here is how I look at it, a five star recruit should play at a certain level their freshman year and forward. 4-star reaches that same level their sophomore year and forward 3-star their junior and senior year and a 2-star their senior year.

tOSU and MSU get 5 star players so they play well for 4 years or however many they stay. Many times it is only 1-2 years though, so when you have a team of 3-star seniors they should be equal to or better than a team of 5-star freshman.

Minnesota, with 3 or 4 star recruits won't compete at the same level as the OSU and MSU recruits until their sophomore or junior year. That's why mid majors win, not because of talented freshman, but because their 3-star guys become seniors. MN has a similar strategy and when Tubby keeps having people transfer it screws up that strategy. If he stops the transfers, Gophers will be winning. This is the same strategy Wisconsin uses, just with a different style of play. You take any 5 star guy that is available obviously but build with 3 and 4 star guys and once you have a good foundation, every year you will have an experienced heavy team.

When 3-star guys are seniors is when you expect them to play like 5-star guys did as freshman (see: Green, Draymond). When you have 800 transfers you never get that foundation set. Hopefully this group is Tubby's foundation and we can build going forward.
 

The truth is many objective people felt Minnesota was probably not a tournament team with or without Mbakwe. Personally I thought with the bad outlook on Walker they moved from 7th down to 9th or 10th in the conference -- this was before the season even began.

Trevor being out is obviously a huge blow to the team, but the season is unfolding as predicted - prior to his injury. Tournament is within reach, but they are looking from the outside in.
 



Gopher Warrior said:
The truth is many objective people felt Minnesota was probably not a tournament team with or without Mbakwe. Personally I thought with the bad outlook on Walker they moved from 7th down to 9th or 10th in the conference -- this was before the season even began.

Trevor being out is obviously a huge blow to the team, but the season is unfolding as predicted - prior to his injury. Tournament is within reach, but they are looking from the outside in.
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I know opinion vary on here about it, but what do you expect from Mo Walker next year? As far as injury recovery and how well he fills in for Sampson/Mbakwe?
 

scher215 said:
I know opinion vary on here about it, but what do you expect from Mo Walker next year? As far as injury recovery and how well he fills in for Sampson/Mbakwe?
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Big man...soft shot. I like him!
 

Well, Joe is 6'3". yes, he had a good game against NW making 6 layups most on offensive rebounds because NW is a terrible rebounding team. However, 6'3" players are not going to get 6 layups per game. In the previous 4 games he did not score a single point. He started 3 of those games. I know he is a freshman.

How many 3 point shots has Joe made this year? Well, he has attampted one 3 pt shot in the last 10 games. One. A 6'3" guard and he can't shoot. You tell me his upside.

As far as TM's mark on this team, I and I suppose many experts, looked at how we played prior to TM's injury and then translated that into a prediction of how we would do in the Big Ten. That is how it works. I did not see anything from this team, even with Trevor playing that would translate to 11 Big Ten wins.

We played Depaul, with Trevor. Trevor had 16 pts and 12 rebounds. Great game. We beat them by 1 pt. DePaul is 2-13 in the Big East. The game was on a neutral court.

Once Trevor got hurt, Tubby changed the offense. The offense actually improved in some ways because we spread the court, had more movement, abandoned the high/low set, etc. This allowed players like Rodney and Coleman to become more effective. It opened the lane for more opportunities. Yes, Trevor would have helped, but youjust can't say we would be this many games better. It doesn't work that way. It is just an excuse.
 

minngg said:
Well, Joe is 6'3". yes, he had a good game against NW making 6 layups most on offensive rebounds because NW is a terrible rebounding team. However, 6'3" players are not going to get 6 layups per game. In the previous 4 games he did not score a single point. He started 3 of those games. I know he is a freshman.

How many 3 point shots has Joe made this year? Well, he has attampted one 3 pt shot in the last 10 games. One. A 6'3" guard and he can't shoot. You tell me his upside.

As far as TM's mark on this team, I and I suppose many experts, looked at how we played prior to TM's injury and then translated that into a prediction of how we would do in the Big Ten. That is how it works. I did not see anything from this team, even with Trevor playing that would translate to 11 Big Ten wins.

We played Depaul, with Trevor. Trevor had 16 pts and 12 rebounds. Great game. We beat them by 1 pt. DePaul is 2-13 in the Big East. The game was on a neutral court.

Once Trevor got hurt, Tubby changed the offense. The offense actually improved in some ways because we spread the court, had more movement, abandoned the high/low set, etc. This allowed players like Rodney and Coleman to become more effective. It opened the lane for more opportunities. Yes, Trevor would have helped, but youjust can't say we would be this many games better. It doesn't work that way. It is just an excuse.
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Lets see, joe could improve his defense, his passing, his ball handling, his rebounding, all things besides shooting you can work on.

He also could go ahead and improve his jump shot!

Why do you think who a player is at 18 is the exact same player they'll be at 22? Hoffarber started out as a guy who could only shoot wide open 3's. By his senior year he improved his passing, the speed of his release, his ball handling, his mid range game and his defense. Believe it or not, guys do get better and add aspects to their game over 4 years.
 



scher215 said:
He doesn't believe players improve year to year. How they are as freshman is how they will always play. Once you hit 18 your basketball career and talents are set for life.

Here is how I look at it, a five star recruit should play at a certain level their freshman year and forward. 4-star reaches that same level their sophomore year and forward 3-star their junior and senior year and a 2-star their senior year.

tOSU and MSU get 5 star players so they play well for 4 years or however many they stay. Many times it is only 1-2 years though, so when you have a team of 3-star seniors they should be equal to or better than a team of 5-star freshman.

Minnesota, with 3 or 4 star recruits won't compete at the same level as the OSU and MSU recruits until their sophomore or junior year. That's why mid majors win, not because of talented freshman, but because their 3-star guys become seniors. MN has a similar strategy and when Tubby keeps having people transfer it screws up that strategy. If he stops the transfers, Gophers will be winning. This is the same strategy Wisconsin uses, just with a different style of play. You take any 5 star guy that is available obviously but build with 3 and 4 star guys and once you have a good foundation, every year you will have an experienced heavy team.

When 3-star guys are seniors is when you expect them to play like 5-star guys did as freshman (see: Green, Draymond). When you have 800 transfers you never get that foundation set. Hopefully this group is Tubby's foundation and we can build going forward.
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Feel free to name all of the players on our team that have improved every year. Sampson? Iverson? Rodney? Austin? Maverick? Where are all of the seniors and juniors that can compete against the big teams? Tubby has been here 5 years. Where is all of this great player development?

Just show me instead of asking me to believe you.

Finally, to those demeaning me, you are only showing your ignorance. I have an opinion. Nobody has asked you to like it. I know you want me to stop but I didn't start this obviously pro-Tubby thread. I responded to it with my opinion. Isn't criticism allowed of Tubby? As one guy said, he is supporting Tubby "unconditionally". Well, that is his right. I happen to think it is better to have actual opinions and disagreements with the performance of a coach. Otherwise, why even have a forum? So we can just type away with accolades and praise for a bottom level Big Ten program? Not me.
 

scher215 said:
Lets see, joe could improve his defense, his passing, his ball handling, his rebounding, all things besides shooting you can work on.

He also could go ahead and improve his jump shot!

Why do you think who a player is at 18 is the exact same player they'll be at 22? Hoffarber started out as a guy who could only shoot wide open 3's. By his senior year he improved his passing, the speed of his release, his ball handling, his mid range game and his defense. Believe it or not, guys do get better and add aspects to their game over 4 years.
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Yes, every player alive can do this. However, by the time they are in college you can see talent. I expect joe will become a better shooter. But what is the ceiling? Will Maverick ever become an all Big Ten guard? Well, according to you, yes. He just has to get better at seeing the floor, shooting, driving, defense, leadership, turnovers and poise.
 

minngg said:
Feel free to name all of the players on our team that have improved every year. Sampson? Iverson? Rodney? Austin? Maverick? Where are all of the seniors and juniors that can compete against the big teams? Tubby has been here 5 years. Where is all of this great player development?

Just show me instead of asking me to believe you.

Finally, to those demeaning me, you are only showing your ignorance. I have an opinion. Nobody has asked you to like it. I know you want me to stop but I didn't start this obviously pro-Tubby thread. I responded to it with my opinion. Isn't criticism allowed of Tubby? As one guy said, he is supporting Tubby "unconditionally". Well, that is his right. I happen to think it is better to have actual opinions and disagreements with the performance of a coach. Otherwise, why even have a forum? So we can just type away with accolades and praise for a bottom level Big Ten program? Not me.
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Maybe when I am bored one day I will compile stats of every player tubby has coached here and their number improvement over their time here. Hoff, Damien, and Al all improved under Tubby though off of the top of my head from their freshman to senior year. Also, development doesn't always have to do with the coach. Guys just naturally mature, get stronger, etc over a 4 year college workout and practice program.

Ralph spent his summers working out with the trainer of Mike Jordan and he didn't improve. Gonna pin that on Mr. Grover too? Maybe he shouldn't have a job anymore?

Improvement can be aided by a coach, but it ultimately comes down to the work ethic of the kid. Even Coach Kill has talked about how some kids don't work as hard as others. Which work ethic do you think improves the most?
 

minngg said:
A 6'3" guard and he can't shoot. You tell me his upside.

Yes, Trevor would have helped, but you just can't say we would be this many games better. It doesn't work that way. It is just an excuse.
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Gosh, both Minnesota high school kids too. Interesting, your take on it.
 

fan of Ray Williams said:
Gosh, both Minnesota high school kids too. Interesting, your take on it.
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I think he only likes MN kid that are not on the MN roster.
 

scher215 said:
I think he only likes MN kid that are not on the MN roster.
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Really? I have praised Trevor many times. I wish Tubby would recruit more Minnesota kids. It is the surrounding cast. We have way too many 6'1 to 6'3" guards that cannot shoot. We have a lazy center and we have no legitimate pg's on our roster. Trevor is a very good player and had a shot a all big-ten this year. So, if I don't think Coleman is going to be a great player, I only like MN kids that go to WI or SDSU? Whatever. We would have won a couple of more games with trevor. That is a lot. Bit it just isn't as easy as saying we would be the same team plus add Trevors talent. This is the same thing I heard last year when we lost Nolen. He had no chance to be all Big-Ten. He isn't an above average Big Ten pg, yet I heard the same thing. It is just excuses.
 

I'm not going to call for Tubbys head, not yet. I'll give him 4 more years and if there isn't any improvements then its over. This is because on paper I feel like he has done a decent job with recruiting etc but it just has not panned out for him. I want to see what he can do with a few more years, more players, etc. I'm just not ready to give up on him yet. I saw the article in the paper showing Cobbs vs. Devoe where Cobbs had 28 and 8 assist and Devoe had 33 in an overtime Ducks win. Royce White has become Fred Hoibergs anchor and MVP of an Iowa St. team that will probably make the tourney and is like 3rd or 4th in Big12. Tubby is snake-bitten and I feel everything that could have been is real, and he deserves a little more time here to shape it all up. Maybe a practice facility, a barn renovation etc to help recruiting along, because my main question is who to coach us after Tubs?
 

MNGreatest said:
I'm not going to call for Tubbys head, not yet. I'll give him 4 more years and if there isn't any improvements then its over. This is because on paper I feel like he has done a decent job with recruiting etc but it just has not panned out for him. I want to see what he can do with a few more years, more players, etc. I'm just not ready to give up on him yet. I saw the article in the paper showing Cobbs vs. Devoe where Cobbs had 28 and 8 assist and Devoe had 33 in an overtime Ducks win. Royce White has become Fred Hoibergs anchor and MVP of an Iowa St. team that will probably make the tourney and is like 3rd or 4th in Big12. Tubby is snake-bitten and I feel everything that could have been is real, and he deserves a little more time here to shape it all up. Maybe a practice facility, a barn renovation etc to help recruiting along, because my main question is who to coach us after Tubs?
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4 more years at 2011-12 performance level?
 

goldengophers said:
4 more years at 2011-12 performance level?
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We don't know what 2011-12 performance levels are yet. They could be a run to the finals in the conference tourney and a first round NCAA tournament victory.

However, if he misses the tournament this year and next year, I will be calling for his head.
 

the bottom line is that if Tubby does nothing in the NIT this year and misses the NCAA tourney next year, the new AD should replace him. 6-20 is just not injuries and transfers.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
The truth is many objective people felt Minnesota was probably not a tournament team with or without Mbakwe. Personally I thought with the bad outlook on Walker they moved from 7th down to 9th or 10th in the conference -- this was before the season even began.

Trevor being out is obviously a huge blow to the team, but the season is unfolding as predicted - prior to his injury. Tournament is within reach, but they are looking from the outside in.
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I was in that camp. I think I wrote that I would be floored if we made the tourney-even with Trevor.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
The truth is many objective people felt Minnesota was probably not a tournament team with or without Mbakwe. Personally I thought with the bad outlook on Walker they moved from 7th down to 9th or 10th in the conference -- this was before the season even began.

Trevor being out is obviously a huge blow to the team, but the season is unfolding as predicted - prior to his injury. Tournament is within reach, but they are looking from the outside in.
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This is the part that many refuse to acknowledge.
 

minngg said:
I did not see one expert that picked us to win 10 games, much less 11. Of course this is an annual ritual with Tubby touters. Excuses for losing and wait until next year.
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So what you are saying is we are at about or even better than what the experts predicted even without our best player? So what then exactly is your point? -1 to your worthless post.
 

MNGreatest said:
I'm not going to call for Tubbys head, not yet. I'll give him 4 more years and if there isn't any improvements then its over. This is because on paper I feel like he has done a decent job with recruiting etc but it just has not panned out for him. I want to see what he can do with a few more years, more players, etc. I'm just not ready to give up on him yet. I saw the article in the paper showing Cobbs vs. Devoe where Cobbs had 28 and 8 assist and Devoe had 33 in an overtime Ducks win. Royce White has become Fred Hoibergs anchor and MVP of an Iowa St. team that will probably make the tourney and is like 3rd or 4th in Big12. Tubby is snake-bitten and I feel everything that could have been is real, and he deserves a little more time here to shape it all up. Maybe a practice facility, a barn renovation etc to help recruiting along, because my main question is who to coach us after Tubs?
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Ok, let's renovate the barn, build a practice facility, and hire a coach before we fire Tubby. That is at least 4 years. Ridiculous.

This argument about who are we going to hire if we fire Tubby is crazy. What if Tubby didn't come here, would we just not have a coach? There are plenty of good solid coaches out there. To hold on to a coach because you can't decide who will replace him will only set your program back IMO.
 

CentralGopher said:
So what you are saying is we are at about or even better than what the experts predicted even without our best player? So what then exactly is your point? -1 to your worthless post.
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I didn't see them predicting 5 or 6 losses either. There is something in between 11-7 and 6-12. Somewhere in there around 7 or 8 wins was where most were predicting.

Of course, you can predict how many we would have won. Just like last year. Let's give Tubby a raise because he would have won 11 games. Let's put an asterik by his coaching record and the team record.
 

gopherinpain said:
the bottom line is that if Tubby does nothing in the NIT this year and misses the NCAA tourney next year, the new AD should replace him. 6-20 is just not injuries and transfers.
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Tubby is responsible for transfers. They may not be entirely his fault, but they are his recruits and as the head coach it is his job to keep them here.
 

That's the frustrating thing

As a friend of mine pointed out to me, even without Trevor a NCAA berth was there to be had this year just like last season (when we had a much better nonconference resume to lean on). It wouldn't have taken much to finish #5 or #6 in the B1G this year, but it appears we won't even be able to do that.

All we had to do in either season was go 9-9, which this season was very attainable looking at how & who we've lost to (@ Illinois, @ Michigan, Purdue at home, Iowa x 2, Wisconsin). But in both cases we imploded/are imploding down the stretch. Heck, if we just win 2 of those 6 games we're sitting in great position in terms of a NCAA berth. Now our only hope is a miracle finish playing against the #1, #4 and #5 teams in the B1G in 3 of our last 4 games.
 

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