any news on Juan Cruz?

[coolhandgopher]

Just wondering if the Twins are still working on acquiring him or if the deal is dead.

[BleedGopher]

He signed with the Royals, who have quietly put together some nice moves.

Win Twins!!

[Schnoodler]

Signed with KC a couple of days ago. dead.

[spermophilus]

2 can play this game, Rhymin' Simon! ;)

[Dr.Don]

Old news, we lost Cruz

[Schnoodler]

so sing the blues,
and cry in your booze,
but please, don't puke on my shoes.

[Omega015]

I guess the offseason is only an A and not an A+ after losing out to KC on a player.

[weezy]

I guess the offseason is only an A and not an A+ after losing out to KC on a player.

That didn't rhyme.
Better luck next time.

[Pewterschmidt]

The Twins have figured out how to win without spending a ton of money. I'll compare them to another Midwestern team that likes to spend.
(season - payroll - wins)
Chicago Cubs
08 - $118 Mil - 97
07 - $100 mil - 85
06 - $94 mil - 66
05 - $87 mil - 79
04 - $91 mil - 89
03 - $80 mil - 88
02 - $76 mil - 67
01 - $65 mil - 88

Minnesota Twins
08 - $57 mil - 88
07 - $71 mil - 79
06 - $63 mil - 96
05 - $56 mil - 83
04 - $54 mil - 92
03 - $56 mil - 90
02 - $40 mil - 94
01 - $24 mil - 85

Twins - $421 mil in total payroll this decade
Cubs - $711 mil in total payroll this decade
Twins - 718 wins this decade
Cubs - 659 wins this decade

So the Cubs have spent almost $300 million more in salaries yet the Twins have won 60 more games.

[Omega015]

The Twins have figured out how to win without spending a ton of money. I'll compare them to another Midwestern team that likes to spend.
(season - payroll - wins)
Chicago Cubs
08 - $118 Mil - 97
07 - $100 mil - 85
06 - $94 mil - 66
05 - $87 mil - 79
04 - $91 mil - 89
03 - $80 mil - 88
02 - $76 mil - 67
01 - $65 mil - 88

Minnesota Twins
08 - $57 mil - 88
07 - $71 mil - 79
06 - $63 mil - 96
05 - $56 mil - 83
04 - $54 mil - 92
03 - $56 mil - 90
02 - $40 mil - 94
01 - $24 mil - 85

Twins - $421 mil in total payroll this decade
Cubs - $711 mil in total payroll this decade
Twins - 718 wins this decade
Cubs - 659 wins this decade

So the Cubs have spent almost $300 million more in salaries yet the Twins have won 60 more games.

All of these numbers are great, but wins per dollar do not do anything for me as a fan. And for all we know, if the Twins ponied up that extra $300m maybe they'd have a world series or two instead of being the team that is smart with money.

[Schnoodler]

the cubs have the worst luck in all of baseball. i'm sure there's a curse.

[coolhandgopher]

Since you're not concerned with wins, let's look at the playoffs since 2001:
Twins-4 playoff appearances
Cubs-3 playoff appearances

Twins-1 championship league appearance
Cubs-1 championship league appearance

No World Series appearance for either team.

I'm guessing you'll have some issue with this too, or refer back to if the Twins had spent more money maybe they'd have that World Series, etc. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. The Cubs are a prime example of "maybe they wouldn't".

The other telling thing about the difference between these two franchises-ask a fan of either team of their most vivid memory of their respective teams over the last decade. I'd bet the house that the Cubs fan would shout out "Bartman". Most Twins fans would probably reference the wonderful 2006 season where they won the division on the season's final day after a long, uphill struggle. I'll happily take our respective memories.

It's also pretty funny to be lectured by a Cubs fan that it's about championships. Even though that '06 season ended in a disappointing sweep out of the divisional round, it provided a wonderful summer from June onward that isn't diminished. I would imagine that has a lot to do with watching homegrown talent grow together towards a division run rather than watching a patchwork of high priced veterans fall short of a World Series.

[Omega015]

I am concerned about wins, just not how much money it takes to get them. Wins per dollar means nothing. If wins per dollar were important the Marlins and Rays would have the largest fan bases in baseball.

You must grow so attached to all those prospects that are "home grown" having seen 0 minutes of them.... most people never watch a single minor league game and only know who the farm guys are based on what they read. Hardly an argument to be attached to a team. It would require an unbelievable amount of effort to become attached to minor league players before they reach the show. I know some very hardcore fans of baseball, and I don't know anyone who watches their team's minor league baseball daily and still keeps up with a major league franchise.

I cheer for the uniform and not the players. And while I think it is a better strategy to build a winner first through the draft, it is possible to be very successful by throwing money at players. Ideally some combination of the two would be most succesful.

Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez were both acquired by trade, but nobody would call them patchwork veterans. They've both been with the team for years and they are the rule, not the exception. If you pull off deals like Milwaukee where you rent guys for 2 months, then that is patchwork. The Cubs sign guys primarily to long term deals and they become part of the organization.

And to answer your question, my most vivid memory is of Ron Santo's call of the final out against Pittsburgh that put the Cubs in the playoffs in 2003 and not the Bartman moment. In fact, the Bartman play isn't even the most vivid moment of that game for me. It was A Gonz booting the ball right after the Bartman play. People should have directed their venom at the play on the field and not the *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!# in the stands.

[The Big L]

One of the reasons the Cubs have has similar success to the Twins despite more money is just bad luck. Another major reason is that the Cubs did not have a good farm system in the early 2000's. Look at the Yankees. Not investing in the farm system can cripple you. The Cubs have turned that around with better drafts, ect. the last few years, and it is starting to pay off. You can talk about the Soriano like signings, but they have produced guys like Soto, Marmol, ect. recently and that's why they are better.

And for the record, if the Twins had a Bartman-like incident I'm sure most Twins fans would bring that up.

My favorite memory as a Cubs fan in the recent years was Game 5 of the NLDS against Atlanta. That was my first, and so far only, experience of a playoff series win.

[The Big L]

It's also pretty funny to be lectured by a Cubs fan that it's about championships. Even though that '06 season ended in a disappointing sweep out of the divisional round, it provided a wonderful summer from June onward that isn't diminished. I would imagine that has a lot to do with watching homegrown talent grow together towards a division run rather than watching a patchwork of high priced veterans fall short of a World Series.

For the most part, it is about championships. Not all the time though. In 1998, I didn't care much that we were swept by Atlanta, because that season gave us the Sosa-McGwire home run race, and we played in the wild-card playoff, and it was just a thrilling season.

But a season like 2008 is very frustrating. When you when 97 games, and then look like a completely different team and get dominated in the playoffs, it's hard to look on the sunny side. And I think you're "patchwork of high priced veterans" is a bit off the mark.

[Omega015]

My favorite memory as a Cubs fan in the recent years was Game 5 of the NLDS against Atlanta. That was my first, and so far only, experience of a playoff series win.

That was the only series win for just about any Cubs fan. I remember listening to that game on the radio. I was driving from Chicago to Hartford, CT after watching the Gophers play Northwestern that Saturday. I got WGN radio in all the way to the CT border.

[Schnoodler]

You guys suck at rhyming.

[coolhandgopher]

It probably appears that I'm a Cubs hater-I'm not, I've always had a little affection for the Cubs, due in large part to Wrigley Field. And perhaps my patchwork comment was inaccurate-although it does seem most of their impact players come from outside of the organization. My beef really has nothing to do with the Cubs, it has to do with a certain poster coming on here and belittling the Twins, as he is a professed Cubs fan. It seems ridiculous to me that someone from that rooting base can make any disparaging claims about the Twins. Are the Twins thrifty? Yes, and frustratingly so on many occasions, but when you actually watch the product on the field over the last ten years, you typically come away pretty impressed, by what actually matters-wins. Have they fallen short on playoff success in those ten years? Sure, along with many other franchises with much higher payrolls. If that's your only stake for enjoying a season that lasts from May to October, well, I can see why you'd be bitter.

As for watching minor leaguers play, you are correct in stating that I haven't seen any of the current Twins play in the minors. I didn't realize that was the criteria for enjoying homegrown talent. I was referring to enjoying that talent grow as major leaguers-last year was a joy to see the emergence and growing maturity of pitchers like Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, and Perkins, along with the impact made by Span and Casilla (yes, acquired via trade or Rule 5, I can't recall at this moment, but nurtured in the Twins farm system).

[Omega015]

My beef really has nothing to do with the Cubs, it has to do with a certain poster coming on here and belittling the Twins, as he is a professed Cubs fan. It seems ridiculous to me that someone from that rooting base can make any disparaging claims about the Twins. Are the Twins thrifty? Yes, and frustratingly so on many occasions, but when you actually watch the product on the field over the last ten years, you typically come away pretty impressed, by what actually matters-wins. Have they fallen short on playoff success in those ten years? Sure, along with many other franchises with much higher payrolls. If that's your only stake for enjoying a season that lasts from May to October, well, I can see why you'd be bitter.

As for watching minor leaguers play, you are correct in stating that I haven't seen any of the current Twins play in the minors. I didn't realize that was the criteria for enjoying homegrown talent. I was referring to enjoying that talent grow as major leaguers-last year was a joy to see the emergence and growing maturity of pitchers like Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, and Perkins, along with the impact made by Span and Casilla (yes, acquired via trade or Rule 5, I can't recall at this moment, but nurtured in the Twins farm system).

I'm glad it's all about me. :)

I'm just trying to keep things in perspective. It gets a little rah-rah in here from time to time. I mean, you see teams adding big name players left and right and those teams are already better than the Twins and everyone on here acts like Juan Cruz is the missing piece.... that sounds ridiculous.... and trust me, not just to me. Adding Juan Cruz in July might be the missing piece, but not in February.

I actually saw Joe Mauer play in AA at New Britain in 2003, so I got that over tons of Twins fans. I should be the biggest Joe fan on earth.

I won't rehash the Cubs homegrown talent, but will say that after several failures (Hill, Patterson, Pie) they appear to have finally gotten some good guys through the system.

[Pewterschmidt]

I have questioned the Twins ownership willingness to invest in the team but it's hard to argue with results. If you can be as competitive as the Twins have been while being fiscally prudent, why change? Signing Juan Cruz would have been nice but giving up a 1st round pick (Zona was asking for too much in a sign-and-trade according to the Strib) isn't what teams like the Twins do if they expect to have prolonged success. The MLB draft is a crapshoot but 1st round talent is the most bankable and that's how the Twins keep the talent flowing in the system. Cruz is a nice middle reliever but not worth the long term costs of losing the 21st pick.

It's not my money to spend. As long as the Twins stay competitive most years, you won't hear too many Twins fans complain. I would assume that when the new stadium opens (increased revenue) and the economy turns around, the Twins will move more towards the middle of the pack in terms of total payroll. I would be more pissed if my team spent big long term money on busts that tie their hands in future moves. That's never been the Twins problem.

In baseball, you just need to make the playoffs. Then anything can happen. All any team's fans can ask for is make the playoffs and hope your team has a couple of starters and hitters on hot streaks. The '06 Cardinals, the '07 Rockies, the '03 Marlins, the '08 Rays, the '06 Tigers, and the '05 White Sox are perfect recent examples. The Twins' model is working. I'd be concerned about teams that completely maxed out their payroll on bloated contracts for non-superstars.