Not sure I am any closer to figuring this team out

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EG#9

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In the first half (especially last 8 minutes or so), the Gophers looked flat out awful. Nobody could make a shot, ridiculous turnovers, forced shots, missed bunnies, etc,etc. I thought Ralph and Maverick were easily the worst two players on the court in the first half and that the Maverick/Julian backcourt had to be the slowest in the Big Ten.

In the second half, the Gophers looked like a tough defensive team that could force turnovers and actually FINISH in transition after those turnovers. In the halfcourt, they made a few plays that made you actually believe they are capable of running a play. Ralph was much more effective offensively and turned a putrid game in to a solid one.

I saw glimpses of the team that some predict winning just 6 Big Ten games and I saw glimpses of the team that others see winning 10 games. The one thing that is a disappointment (though not a surprise) is that we obviously are nowhere near as talented as most of us expected we would be in year 5 of Tubby's tenure. We are going to have to make up for our lack of a go to scorer (again), point guard (again), true power forward (again), and overall below average shooting (again) with team play, grit, hustle, and other things that Tubby has done a great job instilling in his team during his entire career. I think that's what makes this loss so tough is that much of it followed the blueprint for how this team was going to win games against teams like Illinois and you wonder whether or not they will be able to repeat such performances especially on the road.
 

You saw a young team that has potential, that's what they are. When you have 8 of your 12 guys who are underclassmen, including two first year JUCOs, you're gonna see some wild swings from them. They could beat Michigan by 12, or lose by 20. You just don't know how young teams respond to things. You just hope Tubby's experience rubs off on them and they're able to figure some things out more consistently.
 

One negative that I've seen quite a bit that EG#9 touches on is that we seem to really struggle in the last few minutes of a half. What should have been a 5 point deficit last night at half turned into double that. Part of this happens with the hockey-style line change and then another part happens when the first group goes back in. Both coaches went deep in the rotation in the first half, but Weber mixed and matched his reserves with the starters, whereas we had our second group (which contained four guys that were playing their first ever BT minutes along with Chip as the experienced one). Certainly this subbing style has been talked about a ton on here, but last night was another glaring example of how it hurt us and it caused a 5-6 point swing heading into the half.

It's always interesting to see what the commentators say about this strategy - you can tell the guys who haven't watched us before or don't want to criticize Tubby for it as they say "look at Tubby, sending a message to his starters as he subs five new guys in" - whereas the reality is he does it every game.

Go Gophers!!
 

The strong second halves seem to be more than a trend at this point. just need to not tank in the middle of the first half
 

Yeah, that mid to late 1st half was brutal. But I think that's just gonna happen with this team, they're gonna have 5 minute stretches where you just shake your head and sigh.

I just hope this group stays together long enough where those stretches become rare enough to where I'm surprised when they happen.
 


I guess the good news is that if a team is going to tank for 5 minutes, the middle of the first half is the time to do it.
 

EG#9 said:
In the first half (especially last 8 minutes or so), the Gophers looked flat out awful. Nobody could make a shot, ridiculous turnovers, forced shots, missed bunnies, etc,etc. I thought Ralph and Maverick were easily the worst two players on the court in the first half and that the Maverick/Julian backcourt had to be the slowest in the Big Ten.

In the second half, the Gophers looked like a tough defensive team that could force turnovers and actually FINISH in transition after those turnovers. In the halfcourt, they made a few plays that made you actually believe they are capable of running a play. Ralph was much more effective offensively and turned a putrid game in to a solid one.

I saw glimpses of the team that some predict winning just 6 Big Ten games and I saw glimpses of the team that others see winning 10 games. The one thing that is a disappointment (though not a surprise) is that we obviously are nowhere near as talented as most of us expected we would be in year 5 of Tubby's tenure. We are going to have to make up for our lack of a go to scorer (again), point guard (again), true power forward (again), and overall below average shooting (again) with team play, grit, hustle, and other things that Tubby has done a great job instilling in his team during his entire career. I think that's what makes this loss so tough is that much of it followed the blueprint for how this team was going to win games against teams like Illinois and you wonder whether or not they will be able to repeat such performances especially on the road.
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Actually, prior to the game last night, ESPN had us ranked as 14th in the country in shooting percentage, at 49.4%. Also, the Gophers led the Big Ten in 3 point shooting percentage just two years ago.
 

Monty519 said:
You saw a young team that has potential, that's what they are. When you have 8 of your 12 guys who are underclassmen, including two first year JUCOs, you're gonna see some wild swings from them. They could beat Michigan by 12, or lose by 20. You just don't know how young teams respond to things. You just hope Tubby's experience rubs off on them and they're able to figure some things out more consistently.
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I don't really see potential with this group. I think there are guys who could become role players on a solid team, but the only guy who I could see becoming a top 2-3 player on a Big Ten contender is Andre Hollins. The Gophers are not especially young either with Welch, Sampson, and Williams in the starting lineup. The only true freshman that sees major minutes is Andre Hollins and guys like Maverick and Oto are old for their class due to prep school. I think that's probably the most frustrating thing about the current mix of players is that the ceiling is so low. We'd consider it a victory to go 10-8 or 9-9 in conference play.
 

EG#9 said:
I don't really see potential with this group. I think there are guys who could become role players on a solid team, but the only guy who I could see becoming a top 2-3 player on a Big Ten contender is Andre Hollins. The Gophers are not especially young either with Welch, Sampson, and Williams in the starting lineup. The only true freshman that sees major minutes is Andre Hollins and guys like Maverick and Oto are old for their class due to prep school. I think that's probably the most frustrating thing about the current mix of players is that the ceiling is so low. We'd consider it a victory to go 10-8 or 9-9 in conference play.
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Maybe you didn't see the game last night? We took Illinois to double OT on the road and had 3 vital missed opportunities to win the game (Welch missed FT at end of regulation, Austin's no-call foul on his OT buzzer beater, and Welch missed OT layup). This is the same Illinois team that is on the verge of the top 25, took an undefeated Missouri team down to the wire on the road, and beat Gonzaga. This is a game that Ohio State may have trouble with and any other team in the Big Ten would probably not be favored to win. I don't understand how you could have watched that game and said you don't see potential.
 



Most teams in the B1G would consider it a victory to go 10-8 or 9-9. I say the ceiling is high by the time most graduate. 7 are new to the B1G, huge Mo will be back no later than next year.



In response to EG#9
 

howieramone said:
Most teams in the B1G would consider it a victory to go 10-8 or 9-9. I say the ceiling is high by the time most graduate. 7 are new to the B1G, huge Mo will be back no later than next year.



In response to EG#9
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"Most" teams don't have a coach in his 5th year making Top 15 money
 

we rank something like 270th in experience. Welch isn't even halfway through his second season of D1 basketball, same with maverick, same with elder hollins.

We have one senior and one junior who have been in the program more than 1 year. Youth to the extreme.
 

I highly doubt 7 of 12 teams (the minimum definition of "most") would consider it a victory to go 10-8 or 9-9 in conference play. tOSU, Michigan State, Purdue, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan all certainly would not consider 9-9 to 10-8 a victory. The Indiana fanbase certainly would not consider 9-9 or 10-8 a victory either. That leaves just 5 teams: Minnesota, Northwestern, Penn State, Iowa, and Nebraska...I am not ok with being in that group and I would hope most Gopher fans wouldn't be either.
 



My heart has been aching since this game. For a team that's going to have to play their way into the Tournament in the conference schedule, they have to win the games that are there for the taking. We might look back at this game on Selection Sunday as a 'if only.'

HATE the line-change substitution patterns. Not sure if Tubby's always/often done this in past jobs, but it strikes me as a lazy man's approach to substitution.
 

From the Barn said:
we rank something like 270th in experience. Welch isn't even halfway through his second season of D1 basketball, same with maverick, same with elder hollins.

We have one senior and one junior who have been in the program more than 1 year. Youth to the extreme.
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Overall, a younger team but I wouldn't call it youth to the extreme. Most websites that show experience rankings are highly flawed in that that it's a simple calculation based on minutes played in nonconference games at this point... FR, JR, SO, JR, SR is a healthy mix... the Gophers rank is 27xth now, but that'll move quite a bit over the season. (for example, Ralph has played less than half the team's minutes.)

I'm OK with calling this a team that doesn't have a ton of experience at some positions, but but it's not a extremely youthful team. Just wouldn't use it as an excuse. tOSU is "youthful to more of an extreme".

howieramone said:
huge Mo will be back no later than next year.
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Hopefully you're not jinxing things here...
 

Gopher Warrior said:
Overall, a younger team but I wouldn't call it youth to the extreme. Most websites that show experience rankings are highly flawed in that that it's a simple calculation based on minutes played in nonconference games at this point... FR, JR, SO, JR, SR is a healthy mix... the Gophers rank is 27xth now, but that'll move quite a bit over the season. (for example, Ralph has played less than half the team's minutes.)

I'm OK with calling this a team that doesn't have a ton of experience at some positions, but but it's not a extremely youthful team. Just wouldn't use it as an excuse. tOSU is "youthful to more of an extreme".

Hopefully you're not jinxing things here...
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Youth can be defined in a number of ways, depending on how it's utilized. It's one thing to have a couple of underclassmen mixed in with some upperclassmen, but almost always having upperclassmen on the floor.

For a big chunk of the first half when they struggled the most, the Gophers were going with 4 freshmen (Oto, Dre Hollins, Coleman, EE) and a sophomore (Chip). I'm not sure what the reasoning is for that but I'd love to see the (+/-) for each of the players in the games recently. I know those minutes will pay dividends down the stretch and in future years but it's frustrating sometimes watching 5 on the floor with THAT amount of experience.

Down 10 at half, starters played a majority of the remainder of the game. With mostly the starters (and bearing in mind while a JR it was still Welch's first ever BT game), they made up a 10-point deficit, on the road, in a place that has haunted the Gophers for over a decade. Hard to be furious about that kind of performance.

It's hard to compare the Gophers' youth with other teams. tOSU may be going with a ton of inexperienced players too but they are typically only playing 6-7 guys. The Buckeyes' freshmen regulars have probably already logged more minutes than the Gophers' freshmen will all season. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
 

Ogee Oglethorpe said:
Youth can be defined in a number of ways, depending on how it's utilized. It's one thing to have a couple of underclassmen mixed in with some upperclassmen, but almost always having upperclassmen on the floor.

For a big chunk of the first half when they struggled the most, the Gophers were going with 4 freshmen (Oto, Dre Hollins, Coleman, EE) and a sophomore (Chip). I'm not sure what the reasoning is for that but I'd love to see the (+/-) for each of the players in the games recently. I know those minutes will pay dividends down the stretch and in future years but it's frustrating sometimes watching 5 on the floor with THAT amount of experience.

Down 10 at half, starters played a majority of the remainder of the game. With mostly the starters (and bearing in mind while a JR it was still Welch's first ever BT game), they made up a 10-point deficit, on the road, in a place that has haunted the Gophers for over a decade. Hard to be furious about that kind of performance.

It's hard to compare the Gophers' youth with other teams. tOSU may be going with a ton of inexperienced players too but they are typically only playing 6-7 guys. The Buckeyes' freshmen regulars have probably already logged more minutes than the Gophers' freshmen will all season. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
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Sure, but in this thread "experience" (and youth) had been defined based on floor time.

The topic that you are getting into is one that... gets to me (putting it kindly) -- utilization of the roster... I'm not real big on individual +/- stats in college bball, but something I do chart often is +/- of the Gophers when they have 4 or more bench players on the floor at the same time.

Like you, I don't know what the reasoning is and find it frustrating. Reviewing these team performance figures (including +/-) with 4 or 5 bench players on the court would frustrate you even more.
 

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