Free throws don't matter?

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GophersOnTheRise

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Wonder if GW's theory on free throws has changed after this game? If Julian had made his free throws that would be a Gopher win. Not trying to single out Julian, but if this doesn't prove the importance of free throws I don't know what does.
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
Wonder if GW's theory on free throws has changed after this game? If Julian had made his free throws that would be a Gopher win. Not trying to single out Julian, but if this doesn't prove the importance of free throws I don't know what does.
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Not at all.
 


GophersOnTheRise said:
Points are points. Team with the most points at the end of the game typically wins.
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NOW you're starting to understand. Gophers were 16/18 from the line, I think. I'm far more concerned about unforced turnovers, poor shot selections, substitution patterns, defensive lapses, etc. than I am about 'only' shooting 89% from the line.
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
Shocking. Doubt anyone who has seen a basketball game agrees. Points are points. Team with the most points at the end of the game typically wins.
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I tend to think that free throw percentage is slightly overstated, but I have a really hard time thinking that ANYONE in their right mind would feel that Julian's miss changed the game.
 


Gopher Warrior said:
NOW you're starting to understand. Gophers were 16/18 from the line, I think. I'm far more concerned about unforced turnovers, poor shot selections, substitution patterns, defensive lapses, etc. than I am about 'only' shooting 89% from the line.
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That's all just fine and dandy but if Welch makes his two FTs we are 1-0 in the big 10....instead we're 0-1. Tough to argue with.
 

fryguy22 said:
That's all just fine and dandy but if Welch makes his two FTs we are 1-0 in the big 10....instead we're 0-1. Tough to argue with.
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I'm not arguing that if he had made those free throws that Minnesota probably would have won. Obviously in a situation like that, the miss was very important.

However, free throws are not the reason Minnesota lost the game.

If X had happened, then Minnesota would have won (where X = a million different things).

What do you propose to do? Waste time "practicing" free throws during official practice time?
 

Gopher Warrior said:
NOW you're starting to understand. Gophers were 16/18 from the line, I think. I'm far more concerned about unforced turnovers, poor shot selections, substitution patterns, defensive lapses, etc. than I am about 'only' shooting 89% from the line.
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The unforced turnovers were extremely costly and are far more infuriating than missed free throws in my opinion, but free throws are still crucial. If Welch had made both of his free throws at the end of regulation there probably wouldn't have even been an overtime. To say free throws don't matter is to say that if a player is on the line with .01 second left in the game and the game is tied, it doesn't matter whether he makes or missed them. That is absurd. No matter how you want to spin it, free throws matter. Period.
 

MinneStoa said:
I tend to think that free throw percentage is slightly overstated, but I have a really hard time thinking that ANYONE in their right mind would feel that Julian's miss changed the game.
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That may be true, but that isn't the argument. The argument is simply whether free throws are important or not. He has claimed they are not. How are points not important?
 



GophersOnTheRise said:
That may be true, but that isn't the argument. The argument is simply whether free throws are important or not. He has claimed they are not. How are points not important?
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Actually, he claimed free throw percentage doesn't matter. Look back at the article.

The fact is we got the ball in the hands of our best free throw shooter and he missed. Tough luck.
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
Wonder if GW's theory on free throws has changed after this game? If Julian had made his free throws that would be a Gopher win. Not trying to single out Julian, but if this doesn't prove the importance of free throws I don't know what does.
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It's a shame about Julian. He played a good game until he missed that critical freethrow. Then he missed a layup that hurt very badly later on. he also got bloked at the rim a few times down the stretch. He ends up being the goat after a good 39 minutes.
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
That may be true, but that isn't the argument. The argument is simply whether free throws are important or not. He has claimed they are not. How are points not important?
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You've misunderstood. My "claim" (i.e., the truth) is that free throw percentage (and free throws in general compared to other things that impact the game) means very little to a team winning or losing games.

You're picking on a missed free throw. Why not missed shots? Shot selection? Silly turnovers? Don't those take away potential points as well?

I'll take Julian's 40 minutes and 0 turnovers. He and Ralph were very important tonight.
 

Gopher Warrior said:
I'm not arguing that if he had made those free throws that Minnesota probably would have won. Obviously in a situation like that, the miss was very important.

However, free throws are not the reason Minnesota lost the game.

If X had happened, then Minnesota would have won (where X = a million different things).

What do you propose to do? Waste time "practicing" free throws during official practice time?
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Fair enough. I agree that there are other things a team can devote practice time to that are far more valuable than free throws.

As a fan and former player it's extremely tough to watch critical missed free throws knowing they (in this case) directly result in a loss.

edit: also agree with your new post directly above mine, Julian and (especially) Ralph played well
 



Gopher Warrior said:
You've misunderstood. My "claim" (i.e., the truth) is that free throw percentage (and free throws in general compared to other things that impact the game) means very little to a team winning or losing games.

You're picking on a missed free throw. Why not missed shots? Shot selection? Silly turnovers? Don't those take away potential points as well?

I'll take Julian's 40 minutes and 0 turnovers. He and Ralph were very important tonight.
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First of all, Julian is one of my favorite players and I think he deserves every minute of playing time he gets. The only reason I was picking on the free throw was because of how critical it was at that time and I couldn't help but think, "How can anyone think that free throws don't matter?" Those other things you mentioned obviously have a huge impact on the game and I am by no means trying to claim that free throws are the single most important aspect of a basketball game, because they aren't. As far as things that negatively impact a game for a given team, unforced turnovers are by far the thing that drives me the craziest.

There are going to be some games where free throw percentage is virtually meaningless, but there are also going to be games where it turns out to be crucial. What if there is a game where the Gophers are very efficient in all aspects of the game, but shoot 10/20 from the free throw line while the other team shoots 19/20 and we lose by 1? In a game like that free throw percentage is very important. That is why I still disagree with your view on free throws. If you would have said "there are SOME games that free throws don't matter much" I would have agreed with you, but to just state in general terms that free throw percentage matters very little on the outcome of games, well that just isn't consistent and therefore is not an accurate statement.
 

Getting to the line more important than making them. 12-12 from the line tonight would have been a loss in regulation
 

Free throws win games, hands down...If you don't agree, you obviously haven't played tournament basketball at any level.
 


People always remember the last play and think that's what caused the loss. Most of the time you can find 10-15 plays that could have been the difference. By looking at the box I would say shooting 38% and giving up 47% made more of a difference. Free throws are very important, and I will explain that in a sec, but when I watch this team play I can't help but feel that the over all guard play in the half court is sub part atm. I've only been able to watch part of two games this year, but the thing I keep seeing is guards that have no idea how to use a screen. At the end I did see a nice bump and fade, but over all they use screens very poorly. This stands out most with their use of the ball screen. I have seen gopher big men do a great job of setting big screens, and RS does a great job of changing the angle of his screens, but right now they don't make very good use of them. I have yet to see a gopher guard come off any screen shoulder to hip, or make contact with both shoulders on a curl. On ball screens they are not rubbing off the defender they leave too much space, but this is something that young guards have to learn and the fact that I see this as the biggest problem says it could be a fun year. Until they find someone who they can go to in the half court they can not will two games in the tournament.

Now back to free throws dribble drive guys will always quote the math:
when shooting 70% from the free throw line you score 1.4 points per possession.
when shooting 50% from two you score 1.0 points per possession.
when shooting 35% from three you score 1.2 points per possession.

Out of all of those numbers the 70% from the line is the easiest to get and it's the most efficient. As the South Dakota State coach loves to point out, if you are shooting three pointers all game you are not getting to the line and the team that shoots more free throws wins most of time. I would have to find where I have the notes but Hubie Brown said that something like 82% of the time the NBA team that shoots more free throws won that game. Again shooting more free throws could be viewed as a by product of an aggressive team, but when the numbers are this high it's easy to say that its an important by product.
 

Gold Vision said:
Actually, he claimed free throw percentage doesn't matter. Look back at the article.

The fact is we got the ball in the hands of our best free throw shooter and he missed. Tough luck.
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Are you correcting me there? Pretty much just restated what I said with slight rewording. And just to be clear, the argument is not to what degree free throws are important, it's just whether or not they matter at all. No matter how you look at it, you can't possibly say that free throw percentage doesn't matter. Free throws are worth points. More points = better chance of winning. Therefore free throws (and free throw percentage) matter. If anyone's response is that I should pay more attention to other aspects of the game, you are COMPLETELY missing the point. Again. Not arguing HOW important free throws are, just saying they matter. That's it. Nothing less nothing more.
 

gaunt006 said:
Hubie Brown said that something like 82% of the time the NBA team that shoots more free throws won that game. Again shooting more free throws could be viewed as a by product of an aggressive team, but when the numbers are this high it's easy to say that its an important by product.
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Reverse causation. In the NBA the team that's behind fouls about 10 times in the last 2 minutes so the team that's already ahead gets like 15 extra free throws
 

Free throws not the problem crazy to complain about 17-19 from the line! Well if the gophers made one more field goal or had one more stop they would have won.... why whine about 90% from the line was 17-19 from the line the BIGGEST flaw in the game for the Gophs!!!
 

GophersOnTheRise said:
Are you correcting me there? Pretty much just restated what I said with slight rewording. And just to be clear, the argument is not to what degree free throws are important, it's just whether or not they matter at all. No matter how you look at it, you can't possibly say that free throw percentage doesn't matter. Free throws are worth points. More points = better chance of winning. Therefore free throws (and free throw percentage) matter. If anyone's response is that I should pay more attention to other aspects of the game, you are COMPLETELY missing the point. Again. Not arguing HOW important free throws are, just saying they matter. That's it. Nothing less nothing more.
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I'm pretty sure that Gopher Warrior has said that amount of free throws taken is more important than free throw percentage. As From the Barn said earlier, 12/12 on free throws would have been a loss in regulation. Going 16/22 on free throws gives you more points than going 10/10.

In this case, yes, if Julian had hit the front of that one-and-one, we probably would have won the game. I'm just trying to clarify what others have said, I don't know enough about basketball to have a strong opinion either way, but I can see where GW is coming from. You could also argue that if Maverick had drawn contact on the last possession and gotten to the line, which I think is what he was trying to do, and only hit one of his two free throws, we would have won the game. Him getting to the line and only hitting one of his two free throws would have lowered our free throw percentage for the game, but we still would have gotten more points, and almost surely won the game.
 

If Westbrook is on the line, we win the game. Kid could be a jerk, but damn he had icewater in his veins.
 

THE SCOUT! said:
Free throws not the problem crazy to complain about 17-19 from the line! Well if the gophers made one more field goal or had one more stop they would have won.... why whine about 90% from the line was 17-19 from the line the BIGGEST flaw in the game for the Gophs!!!
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Who was complaining about going 17-19? Who said it was the biggest flaw of the game?
 

The biggest whiners and complainers on a Thread such as this are the ones who have never been in a pressure situation in a game such as last night.........The guy who lost the most sleep was probably none other than Julian Welch. How do I know that? Been there done that.
 

who blamed the loss on missing 2 out of 19 free throws. now you reference where anyone said "free throws dont matter".....
 

ruppertflywheel said:
If Westbrook is on the line, we win the game. Kid could be a jerk, but damn he had icewater in his veins.
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Welch's first ever Big Ten game. Over the next two years, he'll be a far better FT shooter than Westbrook and I wouldn't be surprised if he comes through in that situation almost every time from here on out. From what I've seen, he has "it" and he'll be huge for the next couple years.

Gotta love seeing Chip heave up another three 3-pointers (missing all 3) last night. I wish I had that kind of green light when I played. He's now rocking an impressive 18.2% from the arc on the season. Keep lettin' it fly, Chip!!
 

Far better than an 80 percent plus free throw shooter? Hopefully he will be as good a career ft shooter as LW. LW was clutch.
 

Slightly off topic, but I could not believe neither Gopher beat writer mentioned Julian missing the free throw in their writeup.

Obviously the Gophers shot well from the line and any number of things could have wrapped up the game if they simply executed better. That said, we had a very good free throw shooter on the line with the chance to wrap up a game and he failed to do so. Had Julian just made the front end and missed the second, I would have loved the Gophers chances to simply prevent a 3. Free throw shooting was not why the Gophers lost the game, but that one missed free throw is the most easily identifiable play that left the door open for Illinois.
 

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