BADger bb

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bsb76

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I hate badger bb because:
1. bo ryan-complains about every foul and turnover
2. every announcer says over and over: swing offense swing offense swing offense
3. hughes haircut
4. krab's dirty play
5. landry's glasses
6. barry looks like Santa when he dresses in red
7. announcers thinks kohl center is the mecca of college bb
8. Minnesota Kids turning traitors and going to sconnie
9. get every call at home

Someone should tell landry you can have sex without having kids-three kids under three?
 


Minnesota kids turning traitors?
I personally would not want of the those current players. I'll take Hot Rod and Rolls Royce for them taking Brusewitz and hopefully more recruits of that caliber.
Bo's whine act will get worse as the big ten gets better athletes and Wisconsin falls to the middle of the pack.
 

minnyrules11 said:
Minnesota kids turning traitors?
I personally would not want of the those current players. I'll take Hot Rod and Rolls Royce for them taking Brusewitz and hopefully more recruits of that caliber.
Bo's whine act will get worse as the big ten gets better athletes and Wisconsin falls to the middle of the pack.
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With the Gophers on a pretty big streak downward I think it's great that you can live without Leuer, Jordan Taylor and Jared Berggren.

Oh, and about Marcus Landry. The guy is married and supporting his family. Do you really need to attack the fact that he has three kids? Classy.
 

Berggren is a red shirt. Jordan Taylor can the guy even score...Devoe Joseph can. Jon Leuer is almost through his sophomore year and hasn't accomplished much. I don't see where these guys would fit in for Minnesota in the next two years.

It may not have been classy but to make the mom work and have three kids before the age of 22...wait a couple of years.
 


Radio Badger said:
With the Gophers on a pretty big streak downward I think it's great that you can live without Leuer, Jordan Taylor and Jared Berggren.

Oh, and about Marcus Landry. The guy is married and supporting his family. Do you really need to attack the fact that he has three kids? Classy.
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Bo is paying his players?
 

Landry's Glasses

Landry wears glasses because he is nearly blind in one eye and doesn't want to risk being completely blinded during a game.


bsb76 said:
I hate badger bb because:
1. bo ryan-complains about every foul and turnover
2. every announcer says over and over: swing offense swing offense swing offense
3. hughes haircut
4. krab's dirty play
5. landry's glasses
6. barry looks like Santa when he dresses in red
7. announcers thinks kohl center is the mecca of college bb
8. Minnesota Kids turning traitors and going to sconnie
9. get every call at home

Someone should tell landry you can have sex without having kids-three kids under three?
Click to expand...
 

Leuer

You wouldn't want Jon Leuer? You wouldn't want his 9 pts and 4 rebs in 20 mins / game? Or his 49.7% FG shooting? His numbers are essentially the same as Damian Johnson in 6 fewer mins per game in games with fewer possessions and he's a year younger.

minnyrules11 said:
Minnesota kids turning traitors?
I personally would not want of the those current players. I'll take Hot Rod and Rolls Royce for them taking Brusewitz and hopefully more recruits of that caliber.
Bo's whine act will get worse as the big ten gets better athletes and Wisconsin falls to the middle of the pack.
Click to expand...
 

No actually I like Damian and he is out of position playing the three and his defense is better. The next two years who would Leuer play over in your mind.... Royce White, Paul Carter or Trevor Mbawke?

When Landry is gone who steps up for them (go to guy). Bohannon and Hughes are what they are and I think Leuer may have the potential to be that guy but has a way to go. If Wisconsin is good next year and he is the man I'll eat some crow.
 



Leuer and Badgers

First, full disclosure, I'm a Badger fan.

I'll believe Mbakwe's production when I see it. And why exactly is Paul Carter better than Leuer? I'm not really getting that.

Every year, the question is who will replace the seniors for UW. Last year it was who will replace Alando Tucker and Kam Taylor and UW won 30 games. This year it was who will replace Butch and Flowers and the Badgers are right back in the thick of it, after an admittedly rough stretch.

It depends on what your definition of "good" and "the man" are, but I think it's pretty likely that UW will be in the tournament and Leuer will score 12+ ppg and 6 rpg.

minnyrules11 said:
No actually I like Damian and he is out of position playing the three and his defense is better. The next two years who would Leuer play over in your mind.... Royce White, Paul Carter or Trevor Mbawke?

When Landry is gone who steps up for them (go to guy). Bohannon and Hughes are what they are and I think Leuer may have the potential to be that guy but has a way to go. If Wisconsin is good next year and he is the man I'll eat some crow.
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breadtree said:
First, full disclosure, I'm a Badger fan.

I'll believe Mbakwe's production when I see it. And why exactly is Paul Carter better than Leuer? I'm not really getting that.

Every year, the question is who will replace the seniors for UW. Last year it was who will replace Alando Tucker and Kam Taylor and UW won 30 games. This year it was who will replace Butch and Flowers and the Badgers are right back in the thick of it, after an admittedly rough stretch.

It depends on what your definition of "good" and "the man" are, but I think it's pretty likely that UW will be in the tournament and Leuer will score 12+ ppg and 6 rpg.
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Personally, I like Leuer's game a lot. And I think had Tubby been here a year earlier, both Leuer and Cole Aldrich would be Gophers right now. But as we all know, he wasn't and they aren't. Doesn't bother me in the least. I liked the way things worked out for the most part.

The fact that both Leuer and Aldrich are becoming very good players says a lot for the state of Minnesota as an up and coming prep basketball state. And I believe that we'll be more than happy with Williams, White and Mbakwe while the Badgers will probably like having Leuer, Berggren, Taylor and Bruesewitz. I kind of look at it as a supportive argument as to how good the state has been at producing quality talent recently.

Should be fun over the next few years!!!:)
 

Paul Carter is much better than Leuer and probably plays less minutes. Did someone compare Leuer to Cole Aldrich? I've said this before and I'll say it again the only one this team needs is Aldrich as we would have won games on the road at Penn St and Ohio St if he was wearing maroon and gold. Kansas is fortunate to have him.

Landry was pegged as one of the guys for two years. Sorry don't see Leuer as the guy but will be better then the other 3 Minnesotans. However, I agree Wisconsin will probably make the tourney.
 

Paul Carter
SEASON MIN PTS REB AST TO A/T STL BLK PF FG% FT% 3P% PPS
2008-2009 15.2 5.9 4.3 .7 1.2 .58 .9 .6 1.9 .378 .741 .214 1.19


Jon Leuer
SEASON MIN PTS REB AST TO A/T STL BLK PF FG% FT% 3P% PPS
2008-2009 20.8 9.3 4.2 .8 1.3 .64 .6 .8 1.9 .497 .586 .282 1.23

I think Leuer would find minutes on Tubby's squad.
 



minnyrules11 said:
Paul Carter is much better than Leuer and probably plays less minutes.
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LOL...nomination for post of the year. Had Tubby took over a year earlier, Leuer would be a Gopher. That's a shame. To say Carter is better than Leuer is one of the more homerish posts of the year. Do you actually watch the games???
 

Lloyd Braun said:
Paul Carter
SEASON
MIN 15.2
PTS 5.9
REB 4.3
AST 0.7
TO 1.2
A/T .58
STL 0.9
BLK 0.6
PF 1.9
FG% 0.378
FT% 0.741
3P% 0.214
PPS 1.19

Jon Leuer
MIN 20.8
PTS 9.3
REB 4.2
AST 0.8
TO 1.3
A/T 0.64
STL 0.6
BLK 0.8
PF 1.9
FG% .497
FT% .586
3P% 0.282
PPS 1.23

I think Leuer would find minutes on Tubby's squad.
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I'm not sure if you realize it but what you just showed pretty much supported the case for Paul Carter. Leuer shoots better on field goals (worse on free throws) and neither should be shooting from three point range. On a per minute basis Paul Carter has more assists, less turnovers and obviously a better Assist/turnover ratio and he plays better defense with more steals per minute and a comparable block per minute ratio. So I'll give you that Leuer may be a better scorer (about 2 points per game if they both played 40 minutes) but Paul Carter does everything else better.
 

The fact that you're using assists and steals as ammunition for your argument is pretty funny. Those stats are useless considering both of these guys are forwards.

Leuer shoots just under 50% from the floor, while Carter shoots just under 38%. Saying Carter is "a lot better" is a joke.
 

blockedpunt said:
The fact that you're using assists and steals as ammunition for your argument is pretty funny. Those stats are useless considering both of these guys are forwards.

Leuer shoots just under 50% from the floor, while Carter shoots just under 38%. Saying Carter is "a lot better" is a joke.
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How about a forward who can rebound, or that is quick enough to actually guard someone instead of resembling a traffic cone like Leuer? JL has a better fg%, but not much else.

Leuer would get minutes here for sure, but I wouldn't trade him for Carter. The beauty of it is that we'll get to see them for the next 2+ years.
 

Art Vandelay- It's a shame we don't have Leuer, you're kidding right. If Tubby were coach we would have Aldrich now that's a shame. I don't think Tubby would have gone after Leuer if we had Aldrich.
Fine Carter is better who also plays less minutes but a guy who shoots 47% is only scoring 9 points a game is not impressive. Carter had 22 against Indiana and oh yeah was vital in the win at Wisconsin.
 

If you check out the stats on Ken Pom, you'll see that the difference in shooting percentage is pretty huge. Additionally, you keep talking about Carter being a better rebounder, and he does a better job on the offensive boards. But Leuer is actually more effective on the defensive end (rebounding).
 

Radio Badger said:
If you check out the stats on Ken Pom, you'll see that the difference in shooting percentage is pretty huge. Additionally, you keep talking about Carter being a better rebounder, and he does a better job on the offensive boards. But Leuer is actually more effective on the defensive end (rebounding).
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Um...what?

Carter - 14.3 and 18.6

Leuer - 9.7 and 18.2

Again, he is a better rebounder, even using kenpom's dork numbers. It really is too bad that basketball isn't a game played by actuaries on their laptops. It would be much easier that way. There really are some parts of the game that cannot be analyzed by logarithms and differential equations. Blasphemy, I know. Some of us actually played the game and understand this.

I do agree that the shooting percentage difference is large, but in every other facet of the game Carter is markedly more effective. If Leuer is going to make his career as a scorer, he will be average at best.
 

GoGoGophers said:
Um...what?

Carter - 14.3 and 18.6

Leuer - 9.7 and 18.2

Again, he is a better rebounder, even using kenpom's dork numbers. It really is too bad that basketball isn't a game played by actuaries on their laptops. It would be much easier that way. There really are some parts of the game that cannot be analyzed by logarithms and differential equations. Blasphemy, I know. Some of us actually played the game and understand this.

I do agree that the shooting percentage difference is large, but in every other facet of the game Carter is markedly more effective. If Leuer is going to make his career as a scorer, he will be average at best.
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Sorry. I looked at the numbers wrong. That said, Ken Pom's rebounding numbers make a lot of sense, and the attack at using numbers to analyze the game is kind of silly. Because college basketball teams play at such different paces, using numbers like rebounding percentages is a great way to compare guys on teams with different styles. A team that plays at 70 possessions a game is going to have a lot more rebounding opportunities than a team that plays at 60 possessions. This isn't using logarithms and differential equations, it's simply a measurement of what percentage of missed shots a guy rebounds. That's pretty simple, and very effective.

So looking at those numbers, I would say that your assertion that Carter is markedly more effective is wrong. The Badgers don't go for a lot of offensive rebounds by design, so that's going to limit the opportunities for a guy on the offensive glass. The fact that they are basically equal on the defensive glass says a lot about each of their rebounding ability. When you then take into account that one guy is a liability on offense while the other is pretty effective...
 

So looking at those numbers, I would say that your assertion that Carter is markedly more effective is wrong. The Badgers don't go for a lot of offensive rebounds by design, so that's going to limit the opportunities for a guy on the offensive glass. The fact that they are basically equal on the defensive glass says a lot about each of their rebounding ability. When you then take into account that one guy is a liability on offense while the other is pretty effective...[/QUOTE]


If you've watched any Gopher basketball since we beat you in Madison, you would know that the Gophers no longer like to score points (by design) so you can't call Carter an offensive liability. He is just playing in the system....:cool:


I love the idea of Bo Ryan running a practice and yelling, "Get back on D, we don't go for offensive rebounds on this team."
 

Carter vs. Leuer

What is that expression... Statistics are like girls in bikinis. They show a lot, but not everything.

I don't think it makes to try to decide who is a better player based on fractional differences in statistics (even per-minute statistics) when the guys are only playing 15-20 minutes per game. I have seen Leuer play quite a few games and he is a really good scorer. He looks like nobody can defend him at times. His three-point percentage is down right now but he shot over 46% from three last year (at 6-10 or whatever).

Carter seems like a better rebounder and shot blocker to me. Regardless of how the stats work out. I would be more afraid to drive and try to score inside on Carter.

In the end I guess I like the player who is taller and seems to have more offensive upside and that's Leuer. They're both pretty good players who will have plenty of opportunities in the next 2+ years.

A more relevant comparison is Leuer vs. Blake Hoffarber because Monson was only going to give a scholarship to one of those guys and it turned out to be Blake.
 

The problem with this board is that the animosity between the U and the Badgers has grown so fierce that an honest discussion is impossible. Whoever thought Tubby wouldn't have taken Leuer if he were coach at the time obviously hates the Badgers too much to even admit they have a player (or two) from MN that would be successful if he chose to come to MN.

I'm not sure why everyone on both sides is so afraid of the other team being good, not just in basketball but football and hockey as well. The rivalry is a lot more fun when both teams are top Big 10 contenders. And I don't subscribe to the notion that Minnesota can't be good when Wisconsin is good or vice versa.
 

chi-town gopher said:
If you've watched any Gopher basketball since we beat you in Madison, you would know that the Gophers no longer like to score points (by design) so you can't call Carter an offensive liability. He is just playing in the system....:cool:


I love the idea of Bo Ryan running a practice and yelling, "Get back on D, we don't go for offensive rebounds on this team."
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Touche. And it's not that they don't go for offensive boards, it's just that Bo would rather sacrifice a bit on the offensive boards for making sure that they minimize break opportunities for the opposition. They will pick their spots to crash the offensive boards. For instance, against Ohio State on Saturday, I'm pretty sure that Bo saw the weakness for OSU being rebounding and decided to go all-out on the offensive glass to exploit it.

My point is that since 2004, they've only finished in the top 100 of the nation in offensive rebounding once. And for a team that is usually highly ranked in defensive rebounding, I'm going to assume that Bo would rather focus on getting back on defense than crashing the boards. It's similar to his preference that his guys not focus on getting steals and blocks on defense. He would rather they play physical defense with their legs and bodies and stay away from the type of defense that is going to draw more fouls.
 

Radio Badger said:
Touche. And it's not that they don't go for offensive boards, it's just that Bo would rather sacrifice a bit on the offensive boards for making sure that they minimize break opportunities for the opposition. They will pick their spots to crash the offensive boards. For instance, against Ohio State on Saturday, I'm pretty sure that Bo saw the weakness for OSU being rebounding and decided to go all-out on the offensive glass to exploit it...

...I'm going to assume that Bo would rather focus on getting back on defense than crashing the boards.
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Unreal. So let me get this straight...Bo Ryan instructs his team not to crash the boards and that's why Leuer is not a great rebounder? Props to Chi-town for already calling you out on that ridiculous statement.

Then you backpedal and state that when they do well on the O boards you're "pretty sure" it's because he changed his mind and decided they should crash the boards. Obviously that's why they were successful against OSU. God help the rest of us if Bo ever "decided" to make a run in the tourney (read beat a legit team) or win a national title.

The hero worship is mindboggling. I want that one guy to come back who claimed that Bo's D15 national championships made him a better coach than Izzo. You guys are great.
 

I thought they did well on the offensive glass because OSU is a horrible defensive rebounding team due to their match-up zone defense and limited mobility of Mullens and Lauderdale...naaaah to simple.
 

GoGoGophers said:
Unreal. So let me get this straight...Bo Ryan instructs his team not to crash the boards and that's why Leuer is not a great rebounder? Props to Chi-town for already calling you out on that ridiculous statement.

Then you backpedal and state that when they do well on the O boards you're "pretty sure" it's because he changed his mind and decided they should crash the boards. Obviously that's why they were successful against OSU. God help the rest of us if Bo ever "decided" to make a run in the tourney (read beat a legit team) or win a national title.

The hero worship is mindboggling. I want that one guy to come back who claimed that Bo's D15 national championships made him a better coach than Izzo. You guys are great.
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Apparently my line of logic is far to complex for you to follow, so I'll try to make it more simple for you:

1. The Badgers generally don't crash the offensive boards because Bo would rather they get back on defense to limit the fast break opportunities for the other team.

2. This directly limits the offensive rebounding opportunies for everyone on the Badgers...including Jon Leuer.

3. In certain matchups, like against OSU where as From The Barn so correctly points out,
OSU is a horrible defensive rebounding team due to their match-up zone defense and limited mobility of Mullens and Lauderdale
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Bo is going to focus a little more on the offensive glass because the opportunities will be more available and the matchup more favorable.

I don't think it's that difficult of a thing to comprehend. Unless you can come up with another reason (other than basic philosophy) that a team that is perenially a very good defensive rebounding team can be average to below-average offensive rebounding team. UW has the 4th best Defensive Rebounding percentage in the country. On offense, they rank 123rd. Do they just forget how to rebound once they cross the midcourt line to go on offense, or could it be the philosophy of the system?

Let me throw one question back at you. Considering I've done nothing but read on here how the Gophers offense needs help, how could you possibly prefer a guy (Carter) who is a total liability on the offensive end to a guy who isn't?
 

The last thing the Gophers need is another passive big with too much faith in his outside shot.
 

Radio Badger said:
Unless you can come up with another reason (other than basic philosophy) that a team that is perenially a very good defensive rebounding team can be average to below-average offensive rebounding team. UW has the 4th best Defensive Rebounding percentage in the country. On offense, they rank 123rd. Do they just forget how to rebound once they cross the midcourt line to go on offense, or could it be the philosophy of the system?
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There is a reason, but it has nothing to do with kenpom numbers or coaches deciding when to have their players rebound. It does, however, involve a little bit of knowledge related to actually playing basketball and the skill sets related to it. Generally, defensive rebounding is about positioning and technique. Things that can be taught and that do rely on schemes. For example, playing m2m instead of zone or not "breaking out" looking for quick transition points off of misses.

OTOH, offensive rebounding relates more to athletic ability, quickness, instinct, strength, etc. Intangibles, for lack of a better word. There have been hundreds of great d rebounders who are worthless on the O glass. Big plodding players can D rebound if they get good position and know how to block out, but often they are not good O rebounders.

My theory is that Bo has lacked those kinds of players over his tenure. I would agree that he rarely crashes the boards with his backcourt, but to say a 6'-10" power forward is instructed to eschew the offensive glass is beyond stupid. Make that argument for Bohannon, not Leuer.
 

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