Seth Davis: Crime and punishment at Memphis and Minnesota

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I guess it depends what the Memphis guy said on the bus. It must have been pretty brutal. I am sure every team in the country has guys who do impressions of the coach. Usually the coaches find it funny.

As for Trevor, i think people need to relaize it is a mutli-faceted issue. If you are willing to step back, best thing for everyone is for Trevor to keep playing. It gives him structure and counseling if that is what he needs. It allows the woman involved to be safer as there are huge ramifications if he violates again and it allows the U to field a competitive squad.

If he re-offends, the big loser is Tubby and I am sure Tubby knows that. The easy decision was to suspend, but in this case, Tubby made the right decision.
 

Didn't Pastner actively recruit Mbakwe promising playing time last year while his felony charges were still pending?
 


It's quite obvious

Top 10 team at home with your season on the line. No way in heck Mbakwe wasn't going to play. Anyone who thinks otherwise might be interested in some magic beans I have to sell. If it were a role player or the next game would've been Iowa at home, Tubby may have reacted differently but he knew he needed to beat Purdue.
 


Art Vandelay said:
Top 10 team at home with your season on the line. No way in heck Mbakwe wasn't going to play. Anyone who thinks otherwise might be interested in some magic beans I have to sell. If it were a role player or the next game would've been Iowa at home, Tubby may have reacted differently but he knew he needed to beat Purdue.
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Makes sense. Kinda like there's no situation I can envision last season where Mbakwe or Royce White might have come in handy.
 

I can't remember the last time Seth Davis wrote anything of any quality.
 

Gold Vision said:
Didn't Pastner actively recruit Mbakwe promising playing time last year while his felony charges were still pending?
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He did - Mbakwe was granted a release and Pastner started recruiting him. From everything I've seen of the guy, he is as clean as they come (yes, now someone can bring up his Pulley violation - well, he had no idea) - I don't even think he swears, and his players really like playing for him - but he won't put up with anything. He leads by example.
 




panndder said:
Makes sense. Kinda like there's no situation I can envision last season where Mbakwe or Royce White might have come in handy.
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This. Despite all evidence pointing to the fact that Tubby is a coach with extremely high ethics and standards for his players, Despicable Art takes this opportunity to depict Tubby as a "win at all costs" type coach. To be expected.

What about Trevor last year? Royce last year? Devoe for the Puerto Rico Tournament? Very few top level coaches would have held players to these standards, especially players as essential as those three to his ultimate success.
 

GoGoGophers said:
This. Despite all evidence pointing to the fact that Tubby is a coach with extremely high ethics and standards for his players, Despicable Art takes this opportunity to depict Tubby as a "win at all costs" type coach. To be expected.

What about Trevor last year? Royce last year? Devoe for the Puerto Rico Tournament? Very few top level coaches would have held players to these standards, especially players as essential as those three to his ultimate success.
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Are Phil Mackey and David Shama despicable as well since they said the same thing about Paul Carter and they have a MUCH larger platform to do so?

Just looking for some equal opportunity name calling :cool02:
 

Art Vandelay said:
Are Phil Mackey and David Shama despicable as well since they said the same thing about Paul Carter and they have a MUCH larger platform to do so?

Just looking for some equal opportunity name calling :cool02:
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I don't have any idea who those two people are, but if they are spewing the same tripe about PC and his sister's cancer being convenient for him, then yes they are despicable too.

Now back to you taking shots at Tubby for his ethics regarding Trevor's punishment last week.
 

Art Vandelay said:
Are Phil Mackey and David Shama despicable as well since they said the same thing about Paul Carter and they have a MUCH larger platform to do so?

Just looking for some equal opportunity name calling :cool02:
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Where did GGG bring up Paul Carter in this thread?
 



GoGoGophers said:
I don't have any idea who those two people are, but if they are spewing the same tripe about PC and his sister's cancer being convenient for him, then yes they are despicable too.

Now back to you taking shots at Tubby for his ethics regarding Trevor's punishment last week.
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Here you go m'boy

http://www.shamasportsheadliners.com/Archives/January 12, 2011.htm

Phil Mackey is Reusse's sidekick on 1500 and he talked about Carter's transfer awhile back but there's no link as evidence. Sorry. It was discussed however at length on this board.

I expect you to email Mr. Shama and tell him he's despicable. It's only fair :D
 

Art Vandelay said:
I expect you to email Mr. Shama and tell him he's despicable. It's only fair :D
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You mean this hard hitting, well-researched paragraph backed up by absolutely nothing?

"Following last season another experienced player, Paul Carter, left the program and is playing for Illinois-Chicago. The stated reason he transferred was to be near his ill sister but were there other reasons?"

I think I'd use "slimy" rather than "despicable" which pretty well describes a lot of what you do.

Amazing how you go out of your way to rile people up on GH, and then your feelings are so tender. Got to get tougher, Art. You expect everyone else to be.
 

You completely ignored the argument. You implied that Tubby lets his players do whatever they want and plays them anyway. There are very few coaches who would've disciplined his players the way Tubby has (I say that in a good way). And Mackey and Shama didn't say the same thing. First off, neither cover the Gophers very often. 2nd, one of them claimed that Carter had other reasons to leave. A week or so later the other speculated that maybe Carter left for other reasons. He simply asked the question. All of us could speculate like that. Maybe there is some truth to it, but one claims to have an inside source and the other didn't say anything about a source. Any time a MN writer who barely covers the Gophers can get a chance to join in on the negative publicity...

Art Vandelay said:
Are Phil Mackey and David Shama despicable as well since they said the same thing about Paul Carter and they have a MUCH larger platform to do so?

Just looking for some equal opportunity name calling :cool02:
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...and Jelen Kendrick considered Minnesota and Mbakwe considered Memphis.
 

Art Vandelay said:
Here you go m'boy

http://www.shamasportsheadliners.com/Archives/January 12, 2011.htm

Phil Mackey is Reusse's sidekick on 1500 and he talked about Carter's transfer awhile back but there's no link as evidence. Sorry. It was discussed however at length on this board.

I expect you to email Mr. Shama and tell him he's despicable. It's only fair :D
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Are you really hinting that because David Shama said it, it is somehow less despicable? If Shama was on this board, I would tell him the same thing that I am telling you, that is a disgusting thing to insinuate.
 

Speculation vs. visual evidence vs. making inferences

For some reason I feel compelled to jump in here......

Speculation: Anderson8284 speculates that Art Vandelay is overally negative. That's just an opinion. We all know what everyone has...

However, let's try to examine this feeling logically....

Visual/physical evidence: There is no way to tell for sure since Anderson8284 does not personally know Art Vandelay. Scientifically, there is insufficient evidence because no contact (other than message board chatter) between the two has ever been made. No observable visual evidence exists to make a conclusion.

But Anderson8284 posted it on an internet message board. He's been posting on the Gopher Hole a long time. And Art's been on the Goper Hole a long time too. It must be true, correct? Subtle joke there. Depends on what you think of Art, or of me, and if you know either of us, even more depends on your perception of us....Or of what we (each) have written here over the years......

Making inferences: No way to tell. Art has his opinions. I have mine. Largely, I suspect that it is a matter of perceptions. Say, for instance, the example of the Paul Carter transfer....

In this case, neither of us know Tubby either. Well, I can't speak for Art. I don't know Tubby. With both the case of Paul Carter (and the case of Devoe Joseph), I'm the kind of guy inclined to give Tubby Smith the benfit of the doubt. That is, I think he likely made the best decision for him and the team based on what he knew, and was not behaving too selfishly. I infer that Art would disagree with that (my) line of thinking, and suspect he woud think I'm looking at it from/with (Maroon and Gold tinged) rose-coloured glasses.

I might be.

It could be that Paul Carter really despised Tubby. Don't see much evidence there, but it could be out there. I further infer that Tubby got tired of Devoe's skirting (various) rules and lack of committment to Tubby's defensive schemes. Visual evidence here might include Devoe incurring more than his share of the "Tubby stare".....

It's America and the Internet. Art Vandelay has every right to voce his opinion/s, and to take a harsher line on the Gophers/on Orlando Smith etc than most of us tend to do. He's been pretty darned consistent over the last few years in that way, imho. It seems like he enjoys getting a rise out of us on the Board sometimes, and maybe this is one of those times! many on the Board perceive him as 'negative'. I guess I have that speculation and perecptiontoo, but that is all it is....

However, I'm just left with inferences made from perceptions. Art could be correct. I could be correct. I perceive (opine) that I am the one who is correct.

One (other) of those (perceptions) is that I think I would enjoy having a beer more with Dr. Don than with Art!

Also seems to me that Shama did no more investigatory journalism in this case vis-a-vis Paul Carter than I just did in analyzing my own reactions to Art. I.e., I pulled it toegether in ten minutes of speculation, did a bit of editing, and posted it!
 

FWIW, I never said Carter transferred because of Tubby or dissention within the team. I simply mentioned that given the events that have transpired the past couple of seasons, you can't 100% rule it out as a possiblity and his sister being ill was the last straw. That is all. Who knows if we'll ever know the truth.

Instead I'm called "despicable" and that I "crossed a line" and I was mocking cancer patients.

I'm better off throwing around the N-word, stalking females, or smoking weed. You get applauded for that behavior around here :cool02:
 

Art Vandelay said:
FWIW, I never said Carter transferred because of Tubby or dissention within the team. I simply mentioned that given the events that have transpired the past couple of seasons, you can't 100% rule it out as a possiblity and his sister being ill was the last straw. That is all. Who knows if we'll ever know the truth.
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This is absolutely idiotic logic, not that I should expect any different from Despicable Artie. Logic and reason have never been a real strong suit for you.

You know what I heard? PC was having a torrid love affair with Donna Smith and Tubby found out about it. Saul confronted PC about it and assaulted him in the locker room after the loss to XU (surprisingly, he didn't look too roughed up when the team came and sat in the stands during the Pitt game). After a long heart to heart with Donna, PC decided to transfer to save the Smith's marriage and perhaps his own life. His sister being ill was just the last straw.

I mean, you can't 100% rule it out as a possibility, can you?
 

I think why people get upset bout the Carter comments are
1) there is no proof of it and it's all speculation
2) it's pretty much saying both Carter and Tubby lied
 

GoGoGophers said:
This is absolutely idiotic logic, not that I should expect any different from Despicable Artie. Logic and reason have never been a real strong suit for you.

You know what I heard? PC was having a torrid love affair with Donna Smith and Tubby found out about it. Saul confronted PC about it and assaulted him in the locker room after the loss to XU (surprisingly, he didn't look too roughed up when the team came and sat in the stands during the Pitt game). After a long heart to heart with Donna, PC decided to transfer to save the Smith's marriage and perhaps his own life. His sister being ill was just the last straw.

I mean, you can't 100% rule it out as a possibility, can you?
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Well, if other players in the program have had also had affairs with Donna, then yes, your logic makes perfect sense. However, since there's no evidence of prior affairs to support that, your logic is flawed.
 

Art Vandelay said:
Well, if other players in the program have had also had affairs with Donna, then yes, your logic makes perfect sense. However, since there's no evidence of prior affairs to support that, your logic is flawed.
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Well, not exactly. All we know is that other players have transferred. Perhaps there were sordid details surrounding their transfers too. I mean, they've denied that's why they transferred, but I bet Royce's kleptomania and Devoe's selfishness and Cobbs' idiocy were just smoke screens. Down the rabbit hole, Art, down the rabbit hole.
 

I see Badger Vandelay is back at it.

Art, you do realize Bo Ryan has had 3-4 player defections within the last year, don't you? That's the same amount as Tubby. Hmmm, interesting. If one more player leaves Bo Ryan's program and "claims" it's to be near a sick sister, there might be deeper issues in Madison, right? I'm sure you'll be all over that. :rolleyes:

Art's original post stated that since Minneapolis is-oh-so "close" to Chicago, Paul Carter didn't really HAVE to transfer to be with his sick sister, he "chose" to and the cancer was a "convenient coincidence." Art's words, not mine.

Of course Art's tried to walk back from that a little....but it's interesting, just a few weeks before all this, there was a thread about Paul Carter leading his team to a big win over Illinois. Everyone was cheering Paul on. http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?t=25297

Art chimed in with "He transferred. Let it go."

That was Art's entire post.

Let go of what exactly, Art? Everyone was cheering Paul on, that was it. Art's comment was strangely out of place.

Art never answered the question, but it's interesting to note that Paul Carter went 3-0 against the Badgers in his career at Minnesota, and he played a huge role in 2 of those wins, one of them being the big "shaved head" game in honor of Paul Carter's sister, the other being the OT win in Madison where Paul had a big game.

I can understand why Art "Badger" Vandelay would rather not think about Paul Carter ever again.
 

Born a Gopher said:
I see Badger Vandelay is back at it.

Art, you do realize Bo Ryan has had 3-4 player defections within the last year, don't you? That's the same amount as Tubby. Hmmm, interesting. If one more player leaves Bo Ryan's program and "claims" it's to be near a sick sister, there might be deeper issues in Madison, right? I'm sure you'll be all over that. :rolleyes:

Art's original post stated that since Minneapolis is-oh-so "close" to Chicago, Paul Carter didn't really HAVE to transfer to be with his sick sister, he "chose" to and the cancer was a "convenient coincidence." Art's words, not mine.

Of course Art's tried to walk back from that a little....but it's interesting, just a few weeks before all this, there was a thread about Paul Carter leading his team to a big win over Illinois. Everyone was cheering Paul on. http://www.forums.gopherhole.com/boards/showthread.php?t=25297

Art chimed in with "He transferred. Let it go."

That was Art's entire post.

Let go of what exactly, Art? Everyone was cheering Paul on, that was it. Art's comment was strangely out of place.

Art never answered the question, but it's interesting to note that Paul Carter went 3-0 against the Badgers in his career at Minnesota, and he played a huge role in 2 of those wins, one of them being the big "shaved head" game in honor of Paul Carter's sister, the other being the OT win in Madison where Paul had a big game.

I can understand why Art "Badger" Vandelay would rather not think about Paul Carter ever again.
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Yeah, I'm a Badger fan. That's it. :cool02:
 

Art Vandelay said:
Yeah, I'm a Badger fan. That's it. :cool02:
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You are indeed a Badger. If I'm so wrong, you should have no trouble ignoring me....but you keep responding to my posts. :D You usually have no problem ignoring other people's posts, but for some reason when I call you out a Badger you just can't resist....

p.s. I own you, Badger.
 

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