This One Was on Tubby

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jamiche

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I don't know if this was covered in an earlier thread (haven't read most of them) but Tubby's decision to sub three freshmen when the gophers were down 13-11 was the turning point of the game. tOSU went on a run and the gophers were up against it for the rest of the game. There were no shooters and very little experience on the floor. What did he think would happen against the second ranked team in the country at home?
 

jamiche said:
I don't know if this was covered in an earlier thread (haven't read most of them) but Tubby's decision to sub three freshmen when the gophers were down 13-11 was the turning point of the game. tOSU went on a run and the gophers were up against it for the rest of the game. There were no shooters and very little experience on the floor. What did he think would happen against the second ranked team in the country at home?
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The Gophers have 9 available scholarship players - 3 are freshmen.

Whom should he use as substitutes at guards and wing, if not them?
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
The Gophers have 9 available scholarship players - 3 are freshmen.

Whom should he use as substitutes at guards and wing, if not them?
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One at a time FOT -perhaps 2 at most in certain situations. Suit yourself however, if you like the look of Ahanmisi playing the point with Armelin and Hollins beside him - go for it. Do you have any past Tubby history in your Tubby Almanac on how he dealt with these situations, by chance? :rolleyes:
 

FOT, just last week you said that the backcourt of Mav/Hollins/Chip would be "OK" for next season (you didn't even use "good") so why would this trio be a good move a year earlier at the #2 team in the nation? What makes a sophomore trio "OK" but a freshman trio at the #2 team in the nation all together a good move?

Go Gophers!!
 

bga1 said:
One at a time FOT -perhaps 2 at most in certain situations. Suit yourself however, if you like the look of Ahanmisi playing the point with Armelin and Hollins beside him - go for it. Do you have any past Tubby history in your Tubby Almanac on how he dealt with these situations, by chance? :rolleyes:
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Yes - his 2000 team at UK was SEC co-champs with W over NCAA champ Mich State and runner-up Fla despite having a very short roster.

When you have 9 players available, you don't have many options.
 


BleedGopher said:
FOT, just last week you said that the backcourt of Mav/Hollins/Chip would be "OK" for next season (you didn't even use "good") so why would this trio be a good move a year earlier at the #2 team in the nation? What makes a sophomore trio "OK" but a freshman trio at the #2 team in the nation all together a good move?

Go Gophers!!
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Well, I DIDN'T say that at all. You "forgot" that Andre Hollins and Joe Coleman will be guards next year.
 

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of the "line change" substituting. I cringe every time I see the three freshmen come in at the same time, whether it be vs. Indiana, Ohio State or Dundas Tech. Mix and match with the veterans. And let's face it, especially with Mo and Devoe out of the picture, our best players need to play more minutes, not less, to compete against the very best teams in the Big Ten.

Just one opinion.
 

SelectionSunday said:
For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of the "line change" substituting. I cringe every time I see the three freshmen come in at the same time, whether it be vs. Indiana, Ohio State or Dundas Tech. Mix and match with the veterans. And let's face it, especially with Mo and Devoe out of the picture, our best players need to play more minutes, not less, to compete against the very best teams in the Big Ten.

Just one opinion.
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I agree. I don't mind the hockey substitution patterns in non-conference, I guess I get the point that they play better together. But once Big 10 play starts, especially short-handed, it's got to be 1-2 at at time. Mav and Colt. Or Chip and Colt, etc. Unless we're getting pressed, I have no issue with Chip or Austin coming in at the 2 and Blake playing PG at times.
 

SelectionSunday said:
For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of the "line change" substituting. I cringe every time I see the three freshmen come in at the same time, whether it be vs. Indiana, Ohio State or Dundas Tech. Mix and match with the veterans. And let's face it, especially with Mo and Devoe out of the picture, our best players need to play more minutes, not less, to compete against the very best teams in the Big Ten.

Just one opinion.
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+1. I just can't fathom why Tubby would do this.

I'm all for freshmen getting a lot of clock, but not wholesale line changes with 3 in all at once.
 



I have to agree. And during this stretch, Mbakwe was out way too long.
 

Agreed - that line-up was completely lacking any scoring threat. Gotta mix those frosh in more which it seems Tubby was doing during the PR tourney...

Ahanmisi is just not ready for prime time. This kid is completely in over his head right now. He should be playing no more than a couple of minutes a game. Again, I go back to P.R. tourney - Al is the starting point, Blake the back-up. One of those two needs to be on the court at all times...
 

I don't like the subbing either but to be fair Tubby had the Gophers one shot away from taking the #2 in the country to overtime on the road.
 

Despite all of the substitution problems they still had a chance to win. I hope Tubby adjusts playing time or they will not beat any of the ranked teams even at home this year.
 



Winnipegopher said:
I don't like the subbing either but to be fair Tubby had the Gophers one shot away from taking the #2 in the country to overtime on the road.
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But to also be fair, they went on their big run in the 1st half when we had the freshmen in. If they don't go on that run, up by 10-11 when the starters go back in, we might have even won the game.
 

If you're not going to press - why do we need hockey substitutions? I could see it if we were a running team, but we aren't right now.

You can't throw Maverick out there for extended minutes against OSU. Just can't. Nolen, Hoff and Mbakwe need to play 35 minutes for us to beat those teams. We just don't have the depth now. Given the number of timeouts and breaks in action and barring foul trouble - a 21 year old should have no problem playing 35 minutes. Either this or mix the line-ups up a bit and go to a pressure full court running offense. Then sub away...
 

This one was not on Tubby. While you can debate the substitutions, in a 3 point game, on the road against the #2 team in the country, who will probably be in the final 4, I'll take the overall effort. I agree with earlier posts that we need to get over the hump in one of these games and win, but the fact that we have been competitive on the road and in the game against MSU, OSU, and Wisky I will take that on a brutal BT schedule to start the season. It wasn't long ago that we were losing on the road to MSU and OSU by 15-20.
 

I don't necessarily agree with the substitution patterns, but I'll try to play devil's advocate here.

Mav isn't a good player. He couldn't handle OSU's pressure yesterday (3 TO in 9 min). And I don't think that he would have played any better no matter who he was sharing the floor with. He would still have turned the ball over if he was out there with the starters.

Mav's presence negatively affects the team no matter who he is playing with. So if Mav is going to play (which is another question unto itself--I'm just talking about the subbing patterns), why waste some of Blake's minutes by sticking him with Mav?

Blake and Al both play ~32 minutes per game. Do the benefits of maximizing their time together on the floor outweigh the negatives of having an all-freshmen backcourt for 3-5 minutes?
 

There have to be substitutions. Only 3 big guys. So Iverson is going to get minutes. The guards are not machines, they have to rest now and then. The bench is not as deep as it was. In the past the subs have played well. Tubby has to show the freshmen he has faith in them. They may be next years starters
 

Juicer said:
This one was not on Tubby. While you can debate the substitutions, in a 3 point game, on the road against the #2 team in the country, who will probably be in the final 4, I'll take the overall effort. I agree with earlier posts that we need to get over the hump in one of these games and win, but the fact that we have been competitive on the road and in the game against MSU, OSU, and Wisky I will take that on a brutal BT schedule to start the season. It wasn't long ago that we were losing on the road to MSU and OSU by 15-20.
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Did you watch the game? If so did you like what you saw for the first 30 minutes of it? We were losing but "15-20" and then OSU packed it in and took it easy. When they figured out they couldn't coast anymore they couldn't find a way to shift it back into gear. Again- it's great that our guys didn't give up. It's not the final scores that are concerning people or even the fact that we are 1-3. It's what it looks like at this point that has a lot people worried that this season could go south without some changes in strategy.

As far as overall effort the announcers correctly stated that in the latter minutes the Gophs were finally playing with the effort that they needed the whole game.
 

SonOfTheVarsity said:
I don't necessarily agree with the substitution patterns, but I'll try to play devil's advocate here.

Mav isn't a good player. He couldn't handle OSU's pressure yesterday (3 TO in 9 min). And I don't think that he would have played any better no matter who he was sharing the floor with. He would still have turned the ball over if he was out there with the starters.

Mav's presence negatively affects the team no matter who he is playing with. So if Mav is going to play (which is another question unto itself--I'm just talking about the subbing patterns), why waste some of Blake's minutes by sticking him with Mav?

Blake and Al both play ~32 minutes per game. Do the benefits of maximizing their time together on the floor outweigh the negatives of having an all-freshmen backcourt for 3-5 minutes?
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Play 8 guys- many coaches do. Play Hoff at the point 6 minutes a game or so. To play with Hoff for those 6 minutes you have Hollins and Armelin who are both good matches with Hoff- speedier slashers.

Or- go uptempo using the 9 guys- spreading out the Frosh (not together) and keeping the pressure off Ahanmisi.
 

I sort of agree on the criticism of having the three freshmen out there together, but at the end of the day, Tubby has more experience and knows his team better than anybody on this forum (duh). I just think really good coaches look a lot further ahead than any of us second-guessers. You can claim we got back into it because Ohio State coasted; you can also claim we got back into because they got a little tired and Tubby had given his best players the proper break. I also think Tubby might be looking down the road. Realistically, we're not going to win any Big Ten title this year. Give those freshmen an opportunity to grow and don't wear out your starters. Remember, Nolen is also coming off a troublesome foot injury. That might also factor into all this. Ideally, you want your best play at the end of the season. That's what happened last year. That might be a blueprint for this year also.
 

Mulligan said:
I sort of agree on the criticism of having the three freshmen out there together, but at the end of the day, Tubby has more experience and knows his team better than anybody on this forum (duh). I just think really good coaches look a lot further ahead than any of us second-guessers. You can claim we got back into it because Ohio State coasted; you can also claim we got back into because they got a little tired and Tubby had given his best players the proper break. I also think Tubby might be looking down the road. Realistically, we're not going to win any Big Ten title this year. Give those freshmen an opportunity to grow and don't wear out your starters. Remember, Nolen is also coming off a troublesome foot injury. That might also factor into all this. Ideally, you want your best play at the end of the season. That's what happened last year. That might be a blueprint for this year also.
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So you are saying every great coach would put all the frosh together? I doubt many would. No one disagrees that the Frosh have to play- some of them I'd like to see more of. The issue that people are upset about is playing them all together. It's not been working- that's not arguable. I doubt it does a lot of confidence for these guys to toss them to the wolves as a group for 4-5 minutes early in the first half of each game. Work them into spots they can have some success with. To Tubby's credit he did exactly that later in the game going a little bit more uptempo and pressing- spotting Aremlin and Hollins in there.
 

I thought the subsititution patterns in the second half were more productive. He combined some of the starters with some of the subs and at times played better than when all starters were on the floor. I am not sure you can do the mass substitution against the top teams because of the level of inexperience that exists this year.
 

bga1 said:
So you are saying every great coach would put all the frosh together? I doubt many would. No one disagrees that the Frosh have to play- some of them I'd like to see more of. The issue that people are upset about is playing them all together. It's not been working- that's not arguable. I doubt it does a lot of confidence for these guys to toss them to the wolves as a group for 4-5 minutes early in the first half of each game. Work them into spots they can have some success with. To Tubby's credit he did exactly that later in the game going a little bit more uptempo and pressing- spotting Aremlin and Hollins in there.
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Don't think I'm saying that at all. Just trying to understand why an experienced coach might be doing this. Is it just Tubby being stupid or stubborn, or is it something else? Maybe it's more comforting to me to think he still has a better handle on it than some guy sitting at home on a coach.
 

Mulligan said:
Don't think I'm saying that at all. Just trying to understand why an experienced coach might be doing this. Is it just Tubby being stupid or stubborn, or is it something else? Maybe it's more comforting to me to think he still has a better handle on it than some guy sitting at home on a coach.
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I think that's what we are all trying to figure out.

I will assume that you are sitting on a couch and not a coach. :)
 


bga1 said:
Did you watch the game? If so did you like what you saw for the first 30 minutes of it? We were losing but "15-20" and then OSU packed it in and took it easy. When they figured out they couldn't coast anymore they couldn't find a way to shift it back into gear. Again- it's great that our guys didn't give up. It's not the final scores that are concerning people or even the fact that we are 1-3. It's what it looks like at this point that has a lot people worried that this season could go south without some changes in strategy.

As far as overall effort the announcers correctly stated that in the latter minutes the Gophs were finally playing with the effort that they needed the whole game.
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Yes, I watched the game, and no I did not like what I saw in the first 30 minutes. However, I think the first 30 minutes was more indicative of effort, conditioning and overall tentativeness of the players on the court than it was Tubby's coaching. As a person who has played basketball my entire life, and coached at the high school level (not that that has any relevance to what Tubby is going through, but is indicative of experience with the job), I viewed what Tubby was doing with the rotation as multiple-fold:

1) Get Nolen and Hoff a breather - Nolen is coming off an injury and has had asthma/conditioning concerns his entire career, and Hoff cannot compete physically and looked tired trying to work so hard to get open

2) Find players that would give max effort when they were out there - the only guys that I saw that played hard every minute they were out there was Mbakwe and Williams

We were down 10 at half, and we played like crap offensively. As a coach, this can be spun to a positive, and I also viewed this as a positive. I said to my wife at 15 minutes left in the game, if we can get it to 10 points by 10 minutes left, it would be a close game, and it was.

Maybe I just have a fundamentally different outlook than others on this board. As a lifetime fan of the Gophs, and with what I view as realistic expectations year in and year out, I view a top 5 finish in the Big Ten, and a 5-7 see in the tourney as the year-in, year-out expectations for our team. We should have years when we do better than that, but overall we should be at that level every year. So far this year, I (honestly) see nothing to deviate from that expectation, and believe that is realistic still this year.

I see nothing in the "strategy" that says drastic changes are needed. I believe the next 4 games will dictate the entire year. If after those 4 games we are not positioned to finish in the top 5 of the conference, then I'll agree with the notion that changes in strategy are necessary.

The beauty of having an opinion is that it is subjective, which means it is mine, and I am totally fine with people disagreeing.
 

I agree that was a questionable decision by Tubby, as that is an awful lot to put on freshman players, on the road against a true powerhouse like tOSU. I could see playing one or two frosh along with the more veteran players, but to put in three all at once was just strange in my opinion.

Ahh well. It turned out to be a heck of a game, and a great comeback by the good guys, although ultimately not enough. tOSU is tough as hell and fully deserving of their rankings. Their defense is just rugged, man. It struck me all game long how hard it was for us to simply get a shot off against that D, and how we almost had several shot clock violations as a result of that. In comparison, they had very little problem in getting shots off (out-shooting us 56-45 on the game), but they actually shot for a worse FG% than we did, which is what kept us in it. Hoffarber only managed to get off 6 shots in 34 minutes, and that was a game where we really could have used his outside shooting skills. I give all the credit in the world to Ohio States defense, I mean that was pretty much a defensive clinic they put on out there.
 


I am a HUGH fan of this program and Tubby is the coach. Like many of you I played some organized ball but not enough to be able to 2nd guess the Coach of a D1 school in one of the most(if not the most) competetive league in the country when said coach has a National Championship ring on his hand for gods sake! Being a movie fan I love the sceen in the Adam Sandler movie "The Waterboy" when Jerry Reeds character held his championship ring clad hand up in waterboys face and said..."don't mess with the champ"...Tubby is a championship coach. I for one will never try and 2nd guess him...GO GOPHERS!
 

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