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gopheraschells

gopheraschells

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I don't expect a lot of people to agree with me but Nolen is to big of a liability on offense. While he is a good passer and has good handles, I think he is slightly over rated on D. Furthermore he puts us in such a huge hole on offense. When he has the ball the defender can sag so far off him it kills our screens, and Jumbles our inside game, making it even tougher on our entry passes. Devoe needs to play point
 

Well, here's one guy who agrees with you. I posted the same thing in about 3 threads yesterday.

The apologists and Joseph-haters will be all over this, but the simple facts are just as you say. Nolen is a net negative, particularly on a team starving for scorers.

What this team really could use is a true, top-50 point guard. But since they don't have one, the best available option is letting Devoe get 30-35 mpg. The defense won't be much, if any worse, and the offense, which is the team's true problem area, will be better.
 

So lets put Nolen in with the 2nd squad, that has no scorers to begin with??

And watchin the game yesterday, on plenty of occasions Nolen was giving Lucas fits and was getting his hand on the ball. Opposing points seem to put up their numbers when Devoe is the defender IMO
 

gopherfan3 said:
So lets put Nolen in with the 2nd squad, that has no scorers to begin with??

And watchin the game yesterday, on plenty of occasions Nolen was giving Lucas fits and was getting his hand on the ball. Opposing points seem to put up their numbers when Devoe is the defender IMO
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1. Why should there even be a 'second squad?' Let your best players play. Substitute individually when necessary, rather than making hockey line changes. In any case, putting a 'nonscorer' on the first team to make the 'second team' better is the definition of stupid.

2. Nolen played 30 minutes yesterday, Joseph 21. Did MSU only score during the 10 minutes Nolen wasn't in the game? That's the exact 'Nolen's defense is SO important' meme that is beyond tired. Nolen put up 4 pts in those 30 minutes.

3. BTW, Nolen had 4 turnovers yesterday, Joseph 2. Nolen did have 3 assists to Joseph's 1, but for the year Joseph is averaging slightly more assists, and is averaging fewer turnovers.
 

Only thing I will say when comparing stats of Joseph vs Nolen is that you must consider which games they did not play in. I would say Nolen has faced better teams overall than Joseph has.

/Stupid thread is stupid
 


What I have been unable to understand is for all of the complainers on these threads about "whomever" they are complaining about is that none of these "experts" are busting their a$$es on the floor helping and solving everything there. Oh, wait...I know why.
 

andre hollins is gonna take this team to levels unknown. he can defend like al nolen, yet score like westy, and all the while he is a team player. i cant wait for next year as so far this year is disappointing.
 

Dr.Don said:
What I have been unable to understand is for all of the complainers on these threads about "whomever" they are complaining about is that none of these "experts" are busting their a$$es on the floor helping and solving everything there. Oh, wait...I know why.
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Have you ever, on any forum, had an original thought Doc?

Cause from what I've seen, all you ever add is a bitch about the 'bitchers.' Along with the occasional bad retread of an old joke.

I can't have an opinion cause I'm not out on the floor busting my ass? What team are you suiting up for these days?
 

isn't the point of the message board to exchange thoughts and opinions on the team. I never said that Nolen's defensive skills were not valued, but i think that the lack of offense outweighs the Defense because his lack of offense screws our hole offense. Just screws our hole screen game when they can sag off our point.
 



Why hasnt tubby recruited a point? It has been 4 years.
 



I agree that the failure to recruit a high end point guard has been the biggest issue in Smith's time at MN. Without a doubt has been a major problem.
 



as i said before, hollins could be that kid. reminds me of russel westbrook with a shot.
 

USAFChief said:
Have you ever, on any forum, had an original thought Doc?

Cause from what I've seen, all you ever add is a bitch about the 'bitchers.' Along with the occasional bad retread of an old joke.

I can't have an opinion cause I'm not out on the floor busting my ass? What team are you suiting up for these days?
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Chief, you and I have had discussions about this on various blog comment boards (expecially the Strib BitchBlogs). It's the same old, same old, bitch and moan about things, but never out there doing things to make it better. So Back Off, Chief. I often admire your input, but do NOT bitch at me for bitching about bitchers. Amen.
 

Go Gophs eh? said:
andre hollins is gonna take this team to levels unknown. he can defend like al nolen, yet score like westy, and all the while he is a team player. i cant wait for next year as so far this year is disappointing.
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I believe I heard Tubby refer to Andre as a combo guard. Maybe he has him pegged as a 2. ;)
 

rrjackIII said:
I believe I heard Tubby refer to Andre as a combo guard. Maybe he has him pegged as a 2. ;)
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Andre has played SG all of his HS career due to having elite players at the PG spot, this year he is playing more PG (reportedly). He has been working on playing PG for next year, where he ends up playing is a different story.
 

devoe is a combo gaurd, he started PG to get us into the dance. probably will at somepoint this year too
 

baseball_stud said:
He has recruited points.....just not good ones...Justin cobs,maverick..
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He has also recruited other PG's, they've just said no. Cory, Tharpe.. currently Marcus Paige (who knows with him yet though)

It's not like he hasn't realized the need for a starting PG ...
 

siyani chambers has looked nice so far. maybe offer coming soon? cant hurt that paige is playing at the target center this weedend
 

gopheraschells said:
I don't expect a lot of people to agree with me but Nolen is to big of a liability on offense. While he is a good passer and has good handles, I think he is slightly over rated on D. Furthermore he puts us in such a huge hole on offense. When he has the ball the defender can sag so far off him it kills our screens, and Jumbles our inside game, making it even tougher on our entry passes. Devoe needs to play point
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You are right. I don't agree. If the Gophers hope to make it out of the BT tournament and into the Big Dance, they need both Joseph AND Nolen.


USAFChief said:
Well, here's one guy who agrees with you. I posted the same thing in about 3 threads yesterday.

The apologists and Joseph-haters will be all over this, but the simple facts are just as you say. Nolen is a net negative, particularly on a team starving for scorers.

What this team really could use is a true, top-50 point guard. But since they don't have one, the best available option is letting Devoe get 30-35 mpg. The defense won't be much, if any worse, and the offense, which is the team's true problem area, will be better.
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Dr. Don may (or may not) have a drinking problem, but on a basketball fan site your problem is worse--a serious inability to understand the game of basketball.

For example, let's discuss your theory of "net negative". The Gophers were undefeated and won a significant non-con tourney (Puerto Rico) with Nolen sans Joseph. The Gophers have lost three games this year in which Joseph has played (Virginia, MSU, Wisconsin). The Gophers lost two games with Nolen (Wisconsin, MSU)--both after coming off a significant injury that is probably not fully healed. Net negative: Joseph

Let's get even more specific on your "net negative" theory (you'll need some video tape for this one). The difference makers/scorers on the opponents teams (Taylor-Wisconsin; Summers, Lucas, Lucious-MSU) pretty much avoided Nolen, making the majority of their shots against Joseph and other Gopher defenders. And don't get me started on that three-point clinic put on by the guard from Virginia. Again, net negative: Joseph

The main problem with your theory is that Joseph would have to average 22 - 25 pts per game to make up for what he gives away on defense. I love the way you isolate Nolen's bad games to justify your unnatural dislike for Nolen's game. Let's hope that his foot heals to the point where Nolen came regain his tenacity because that is what is most lacking on this Gopher team.

Joseph's "spectacular" play last season was masked by serious supporting roles in Westbrook, Johnson, and Carter. On perimeter defense this season, Nolen pretty much stands alone without any assistance. Of course, because Joseph and Nolen are hardly ever on the floor at the same time, they may never be able to create the natural traps that is the result of getting to know your teammates' tendencies (on both offense and defense).

And Nolen needs to shoot MORE. That is the only way his shot will improve, keeping the opponents honest on defense and his teammates honest on offense. Why is Nolen the only person on the Gophers that isn't given the green light to shoot the damn ball? The stats don't back up this negative b.s. If this team wants to win, Nolen needs to shoot more without hesitation when he's open, not just because the shot clock is running out.

Again, if you want to continue to gripe, it all starts with Tubby. He looks more and more like he doesn't know what the hell he's doing with this group.
 

Drex96 said:
You are right. I don't agree. If the Gophers hope to make it out of the BT tournament and into the Big Dance, they need both Joseph AND Nolen.




Dr. Don may (or may not) have a drinking problem, but on a basketball fan site your problem is worse--a serious inability to understand the game of basketball.

For example, let's discuss your theory of "net negative". The Gophers were undefeated and won a significant non-con tourney (Puerto Rico) with Nolen sans Joseph. The Gophers have lost three games this year in which Joseph has played (Virginia, MSU, Wisconsin). The Gophers lost two games with Nolen (Wisconsin, MSU)--both after coming off a significant injury that is probably not fully healed. Net negative: Joseph

Let's get even more specific on your "net negative" theory (you'll need some video tape for this one). The difference makers/scorers on the opponents teams (Taylor-Wisconsin; Summers, Lucas, Lucious-MSU) pretty much avoided Nolen, making the majority of their shots against Joseph and other Gopher defenders. And don't get me started on that three-point clinic put on by the guard from Virginia. Again, net negative: Joseph

The main problem with your theory is that Joseph would have to average 22 - 25 pts per game to make up for what he gives away on defense. I love the way you isolate Nolen's bad games to justify your unnatural dislike for Nolen's game. Let's hope that his foot heals to the point where Nolen came regain his tenacity because that is what is most lacking on this Gopher team.

Joseph's "spectacular" play last season was masked by serious supporting roles in Westbrook, Johnson, and Carter. On perimeter defense this season, Nolen pretty much stands alone without any assistance. Of course, because Joseph and Nolen are hardly ever on the floor at the same time, they may never be able to create the natural traps that is the result of getting to know your teammates' tendencies (on both offense and defense).

And Nolen needs to shoot MORE. That is the only way his shot will improve, keeping the opponents honest on defense and his teammates honest on offense. Why is Nolen the only person on the Gophers that isn't given the green light to shoot the damn ball? The stats don't back up this negative b.s. If this team wants to win, Nolen needs to shoot more without hesitation when he's open, not just because the shot clock is running out.

Again, if you want to continue to gripe, it all starts with Tubby. He looks more and more like he doesn't know what the hell he's doing with this group.
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Wait a minute...you think Nolen needs to shoot more, yet I'M the one with a serious inability to understand the game of basketball?

I'll ask just two questions of your superior basketball knowledge:

1. Why do you suppose the Gopher half court offense has struggled continually with Nolen on the floor...for years now?

2. Nolen played 30 minutes against MSU, and the Spartans had open three point looks virtually at will the entire game. That's Joseph's fault?

Please, do go to the video tape. Get back to us after that. You'll see that Nolen hurts this team more than he helps it. The other four players are forced to play four on five in the halfcourt offense, which is this team's biggest weakness, not it's defense. Basketball is an offensive game anyway. You don't win in basketball if you can't score, no matter how good you think your defense is.
 

USAFChief said:
Wait a minute...you think Nolen needs to shoot more, yet I'M the one with a serious inability to understand the game of basketball?

I'll ask just two questions of your superior basketball knowledge:

1. Why do you suppose the Gopher half court offense has struggled continually with Nolen on the floor...for years now?

2. Nolen played 30 minutes against MSU, and the Spartans had open three point looks virtually at will the entire game. That's Joseph's fault?

Please, do go to the video tape. Get back to us after that. You'll see that Nolen hurts this team more than he helps it. The other four players are forced to play four on five in the halfcourt offense, which is this team's biggest weakness, not it's defense. Basketball is an offensive game anyway. You don't win in basketball if you can't score, no matter how good you think your defense is.
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1. Tubby's offense seems to bog down continually. That is not all Nolen's fault. It happens all the time, even when Nolen is not there. Last season after AN was ineligible was great example.

2. I dont think it is DJ fault; it is the ball line defense. This is not a new problem with the team.


If AN hurts the team more than he helps, why hasnt tubby brought in a solid point in 4 years?
 

our offense is keyed around screens, with nolen at the point, his defender is allowed to sag down which crowds everything down low and disrupts our offense. Yes if Nolen would start shooting the ball more it would keep the D honest but there is a reason he doesnt. I think its a little late in his career to start jacking up shots to work on his shot dont ya think? I would prefer for Nolen to come off of the bench
 

gopheraschells said:
our offense is keyed around screens, with nolen at the point, his defender is allowed to sag down which crowds everything down low and disrupts our offense. Yes if Nolen would start shooting the ball more it would keep the D honest but there is a reason he doesnt. I think its a little late in his career to start jacking up shots to work on his shot dont ya think? I would prefer for Nolen to come off of the bench
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+1
 

rrjackIII said:
I believe I heard Tubby refer to Andre as a combo guard. Maybe he has him pegged as a 2. ;)
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Hollins is a natural 2 guard. He has been pressed into service as a 3 because Williams is the only other 3 on the team right now. We lack depth at the 3 spot.

Next year with Oto and Halverson able to play we will have more natural depth at that spot.
 

figi said:
Hollins is a natural 2 guard. He has been pressed into service as a 3 because Williams is the only other 3 on the team right now. We lack depth at the 3 spot.

Next year with Oto and Halverson able to play we will have more natural depth at that spot.
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I believe he was referring to Andre (Incoming Freshman) not Austin (Current Freshman)

This is going to get fun with these two on the same team.
 

Al

He was the MVP in Puerto Rico tournament despite Trevor getting the award. He is coming back from injury this team does not win without Al at point...

Al will be fine.
 

USAFChief said:
Wait a minute...you think Nolen needs to shoot more, yet I'M the one with a serious inability to understand the game of basketball?

I'll ask just two questions of your superior basketball knowledge:

1. Why do you suppose the Gopher half court offense has struggled continually with Nolen on the floor...for years now?

2. Nolen played 30 minutes against MSU, and the Spartans had open three point looks virtually at will the entire game. That's Joseph's fault?

Please, do go to the video tape. Get back to us after that. You'll see that Nolen hurts this team more than he helps it. The other four players are forced to play four on five in the halfcourt offense, which is this team's biggest weakness, not it's defense. Basketball is an offensive game anyway. You don't win in basketball if you can't score, no matter how good you think your defense is.
Click to expand...

You don't have the videotape, do you? Until you take time to look at it, ALL OF IT, from the past four seasons, STFU because you clearly are only looking at stats on paper, not stats in context. That why you and others like you honestly believe that Hoffarber can play the point better than Nolen. Stats lie, don't you know that by now?

Nolen makes the offense go, as was clearly the case in Puerto Rico. Ask Izzo, Painter, Ryan, Matta, Weber, Lucas, Lucious, Taylor, Leuer (his former AAU teammate), Thompson, etc.--people who have actually played against Nolen. I guarantee you that they have ALL looked at the videotape, that's why they know take Nolen out of the equation and the three is yours.

And this Gopher team with its anemic, "WTF am I doing" Tubby-created offense will NEVER outscore any of these teams. They have to shut them down. There are no NBA-type scorers on this team and even the NBA coaches will tell you that defense is essential to the winning equation. Yeah the team with the most points wins the game, but if your game-winning strategy is "just shoot baby" your teams aren't going to win many games against tough competition.


BarnBurner said:
1. Tubby's offense seems to bog down continually. That is not all Nolen's fault. It happens all the time, even when Nolen is not there. Last season after AN was ineligible was great example.

2. I dont think it is DJ fault; it is the ball line defense. This is not a new problem with the team.

If AN hurts the team more than he helps, why hasnt tubby brought in a solid point in 4 years?
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Agree

Roland Brooks said:
He was the MVP in Puerto Rico tournament despite Trevor getting the award. He is coming back from injury this team does not win without Al at point...

Al will be fine.
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+100
 

Drex96 said:
You don't have the videotape, do you? Until you take time to look at it, ALL OF IT, from the past four seasons, STFU because you clearly are only looking at stats on paper, not stats in context. That why you and others like you honestly believe that Hoffarber can play the point better than Nolen. Stats lie, don't you know that by now?

Nolen makes the offense go, as was clearly the case in Puerto Rico. Ask Izzo, Painter, Ryan, Matta, Weber, Lucas, Lucious, Taylor, Leuer (his former AAU teammate), Thompson, etc.--people who have actually played against Nolen. I guarantee you that they have ALL looked at the videotape, that's why they know take Nolen out of the equation and the three is yours.

And this Gopher team with its anemic, "WTF am I doing" Tubby-created offense will NEVER outscore any of these teams. They have to shut them down. There are no NBA-type scorers on this team and even the NBA coaches will tell you that defense is essential to the winning equation. Yeah the team with the most points wins the game, but if your game-winning strategy is "just shoot baby" your teams aren't going to win many games against tough competition.




Agree



+100
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No, I don't have the videotape from the last four years.

And I'll take "STFU" as an admission you've lost the debate.
 

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