Krabbenhoft needs to be banned for life...

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From the Barn

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If Manny Harris can get ejected for a clearly inadvertent elbow. Way to be consistent Big Ten refs.
 

What a horrible call. Foul, probably. But intentional and then ejection? Terrible call!
 

They called it as flagrantm as in "intent to injure". Wouldn't he have had to see the guy?
 

The rule book addresses the use of an elbow to cause possible injury, whether intentional or not, is so severe that it falls under flagrant foul and disqualification. Intent is not to be considered, it is the act in and of itself. And YES, Krabby should have been disqualified.
 

I was at the game just on the outside of the sideline so I had a pretty decent look at the play. Anyway I just saw it in real time(they didn't put it on the replay board for logical reasons) but to me everything happened so quickly I could make a judgement if it was dirty or not. But it did look less dirty than Krabbenhoft's elbow to LewJack(who sat out today with a concussion).

That was the most intense game I have ever been at. From about 10 seconds to go in the first half to until Purdue started to pull away everyone was one the edge of there seat. What happened was Michigan started fouling at the end of the first with only like 3 fouls, anyways Kramer was inbounding the ball to Hummel who ended up laying on the ground(but no foul was called I don't know how that happened) Michigan ended up getting a tip in with like .1 to go. On the way back to the lockerroom Painter got T'ed up for argueing. Needless to say the refs weren't welcomed back on to the court at the beginning of the second half. Then Harris fouls Kramer who ended laying on the court for a few minutes while the refs went to moniter to look at the play then tossed Harris BEFORE Kramer got up. So you can't make the if there wasn't blood arguement. As I said I don't know if was the right call or not. Belien agrued with the head ref(Burr, I think) for like minutes and was lucky not to get T'ed up himself. Anyway Kramer comes back a few minutes later with a mask on. And Purdue proceeds to dismantle Michigan and and wins by 18.

There is a quick summery of what happened for those who didn't see it.
 


I watched the game, and the replay several times. The use of an elbow, whether intentional or not, is flagrant, whether contact is made or not. It IS addressed in the rule book. The call was correct, the ejection was correct.

This is the type of thing that will result in an eventual brawl again AKA Ron Behagen and Corky Taylor vs. tOSU years ago situation. And it is NOT unique to the Big10.

Swinging of the elbows is FLAGRANT. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Manny Harris also timed it poorly. Coming off a week with 3 highly pubilicized incented that either involved hard foul(Krabbenhoft elbow to LewJack, Dumes vs. Moore during NW-IU, and Novak elbowing Hill) not a good time to try and get away with something like that. I would think the Big Ten office sent a memo out to its ref's saying don't let this stuff happen and if it does take care of it.
 

What Harris did is done about 50 times per game, was perfectly fine within the context of the game, and was more Kramer's fault than anything else. The refs agreed, until they noticed Kramer was bleeding. Check the tape, people bleed even if they aren't standing up.
 

From the Barn said:
What Harris did is done about 50 times per game, was perfectly fine within the context of the game, and was more Kramer's fault than anything else. The refs agreed, until they noticed Kramer was bleeding. Check the tape, people bleed even if they aren't standing up.
Click to expand...

I agree and disagree. The elbow was not intentional and Harris should not have been ejected, but it still should've been a foul. Saying it was more Kramer's fault is one of the more ludicrous statements I've ever heard or read. If that was Al Nolen on the receiving end of an elbow like that I guarantee you this message board would spontaneously combust from all of the whining.
 



Flagrant personal foul, live ball. A flagrant personal foul shall be
a personal foul that involves severe or extreme contact with an
opponent or involves contact that is extreme in nature while the ball
is live.

If you think that was "extreme", watch a bit more basketball.
 

It totally should have been a foul, but if Kramer wasn't playing defense with his face 25 feet from the basket we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And funny that you bring it up, because according to the rules
"Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movement
as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it,
releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not
be considered excessive."

and the kicker
"When a player approaches an opponent from behind or a position
from which the player has no reasonable chance to play the ball without
making contact with the opponent, the responsibility for contact shall be
that of the player in the unfavorable position."
 

From the Barn, you are wrong on this one. Burr had made the decision to toss Harris before Kramer ever left the floor. And you couldn't see the blood otherwise because Kramer was laying on top of the pile. So the blood had nothing to do with it.

I wasn't sure if it was flagrant right away but after seeing this .gif I'm sure Manny knew what he was doing. It isn't the greatest but to me it is conclusive enough to come to the conclusion that Harris was knew what was going on.

http://picasion.com/pic6/e657173e71e82812ca43297078d57444.gif
 

No one is arguing that Harris never moved his elbow, and if he were trying to hit him, he would have done more than hit the outside of his nose.

And Abu-Shamala got his nose busted last year by some swinging elbows and I recall no meltdown.
 




It did. I didn't.

"Jamal Abu-Shamala bled his own blood…alot. He left the game after taking what appeared to be an elbow to the bridge of his nose. After a few stitches and a few encouraging words from his mom, he was back in the game during the extended garbage time. He didn’t do much, but at least he is ok."

Yup, I sure freaked out there.
 

Maybe Jim Burr has some issues he needs to work out. He was at the Novak game and needs to make up for it?

And it isn't like Harris has stop motion photography at his disposal when trying to bring the ball through.
 

I realize that .gif isn't perfect but unless you have some better replay thats what I'm going by. Anyway you see in frame 2 that Harris can see Kramer might not be at 12 o'clock but 10-11 o'clock and it really usually will be in your field a vision. He started to lift the ball at that point but not commited to changing sides. Then in frame 3 can see his elbow is going to land on Kramer's nose. Which tells me that he made a quick decision to throw the elbow at Kramer. In picture 4 it is clearly connected and picture 5 is the follow though. I can also tell you from being there that the speed that he brought the ball across the body was much faster than normal. Notice the distance between Kramer and Harris that is atleast 2 feet so it isn't like Kramer was inches from him. All of that adds up to me that Harris knew what he was doing when he though the elbow.
 

You can not seriously being try to break this down frame by frame. This play happened in a matter of a few seconds It was incidental contact. I can understand the offensive foul but flagrant and an ejection is a travesty. It's overreaction by the Big Ten refs because the have done a terrible job in the past and have now become overly cautious. Krabbenhoft's elbow was much more flagrant. I think that officials need to be held more accountable for how games are ref'd and a more transparent system of evaluation is needed.
 

No way Harris clearly knew Kramer was there and clearly extended his elbow to hit Kramer.

Either way though, I agree with you on accountability. The ref's answer to no one or atleast anyone with balls. I wish coaches could call the ref's out without getting fined. That would be the simpliest way to end the problem. Think Hightower might call a decent game for once(ok, maybe not Hightower) but Hillary might manage it. Personally I think it's crap. My biggest problem is the lack of consistancy from game to game or even within games.
 

Krabs should have gotten a foul but not kicked out or suspended. He has a lot of frustration re: the season.
 

mnboiler said:
I realize that .gif isn't perfect but unless you have some better replay thats what I'm going by. Anyway you see in frame 2 that Harris can see Kramer might not be at 12 o'clock but 10-11 o'clock and it really usually will be in your field a vision. He started to lift the ball at that point but not commited to changing sides. Then in frame 3 can see his elbow is going to land on Kramer's nose. Which tells me that he made a quick decision to throw the elbow at Kramer. In picture 4 it is clearly connected and picture 5 is the follow though. I can also tell you from being there that the speed that he brought the ball across the body was much faster than normal. Notice the distance between Kramer and Harris that is atleast 2 feet so it isn't like Kramer was inches from him. All of that adds up to me that Harris knew what he was doing when he though the elbow.
Click to expand...

So, you actually haven't seen a replay yet have you?
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He was inches from him.
 

That is the first time I have seen the replay in motion. Everything happens really fast there, but that is college basketball. To me it looks like when Harris catches the ball he waits a split second and looks around. With Kramer being "inches" away from him you would think that Harris knew Kramer was there. The delay and how close Kramer was to me implies that there was intent there. You are going to say that he was making some space but I have never seen anyone rip there arms around that quickly to make space. He also had to lift his arm to hit Kramers nose one more peice that implies intent.

My guess is that we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
 

Take off your smoke stained black and gold glasses for just a second and watch the replay again. Then watch any other basketball game and count the number of times that a player brings the ball through. Chris Kramer even said it wasn't intentional during the post game interview.
 

I know players take the ball across there body all the time. But how often do you see a player whip the ball across that quickly at head level? Hell he paused after he caught the ball he knew Kramer was there, yet he still decided to rip the ball across the body at head level really really fast.

What is Kramer going to say after the game "That Harris intentially elbowed me in the head. He should be suspended for the rest of the season." That would go over real well. Of course he was going to say it was clean.
 


I'm going to have to agree with the guys on ESPN tonight. Purdue players are taught to play in your face defense, and Michigan players are taught to square up to the basket when turning bring the ball either low... or high (like in this case). Seeing how he did not "swing" his elbows, but rather fully turned his whole body while on the pivot foot this shouldn't be a flagrant foul. They did a nice visual on it, that really explained it better than I could.
 

To me (looking at the pics & video), it looks like Manny lead with the elbow - not part of an entire body motion - pivot. THe rest of the body came after. Can't complain about the call.
 

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