Cause for Concern?: Tubby, recruiting efforts, program direction, etc.

[ShowinGoldyLove]

Won't go into the details of why Joe [Coleman] is down on MN but there are some issues in his mind and Tubby and co. need to fix it as best they can.


I think I know what Johnny is referring to.

Based on the quotes from some of the most respected and informed posters on Gopherhole, this is VERY concerning to me as a fan.

Couple that with Tubby & Co. striking out on nearly every single person that they've targeted in the Top 150 in the past few years (that isn't from MN), is there some undercurrent with recruits regarding Tubby's coaching style, personality, etc. that is making them pass us over? If so, what the heck is it? (I understand Johnny & Moonlight don't want to bring bad issues to light, but it seems to be a pretty big deal).

I've tried to keep quiet over the past few months regarding our recruiting efforts lately, but I'll have to admit; I'm becoming VERY CONCERNED.

I know FoT will pop on by here with a list about Tubby's glory days getting blue-chip recruiting classes at Kentucky, but is it just me, or do those days seem to be gone?

Tubby is an old school coach/recruiter; seemingly a disciplinarian (guys making a mistake get pulled nearly immediately), somewhat lacking in offensive sets (has anyone figured out what's going on out there?), and getting in on 2 and 3 star recruits at the 11th hour. With recruiters like Calipari, Williams, Coach K, and upstarts like Pastner changing how recruiting works (24/7 job, not 5-6 months out of the year), programs need to be cutting edge with their recruiting efforts.

With the exception of the 2 MN recruits (Williams & White), have we even had a sniff of a top-notch recruit in this year or next year's class?

No offense to Maverick, Oto, Eliason, etc., but these guys are not the types of players a Big 10 program needs to compete for Top 4-5 finishes, much less titles. We're paying our coach one of the top salaries in the country for a reason. I'd be fine with our progress at this point; we've come a long ways in 3 years from where we were. However, based on our recent recruiting efforts, I think we're going to be in BIG trouble in the very near future if we don't right this ship fast.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom, because I've been much happier in the past 2-3 years than I was with the Monson years...these are just some things I've been thinking about over the past year or so. Sorry for the long-windedness of this message, but I thought I'd just throw it out there and get your thoughts?

[EG#9]

One of the issues with Coleman may be "offergate" from this fall. If you remember, there was some confusion over the validity of Coleman's offer and I believe GopherLady finally posted that Tubby called the family to confirm the offer.

I am very concerned with the direction of the program as well, but I try to keep in mind that we've essentially had one poor (on paper) spring recruiting season that was largely due to unforseen scholarship availability.

That said, what is going on for 2011? We are not in on any "Big Time" recruits despite having plenty of playing time to offer in the future. By my count we will probably need to bring in at least 4 players in 2011 and have no commits. We have 3 scholarships open for sure plus possibly Oto's scholarship or Trevor's scholarship or both. We also have the very real possibility of someone transferring due to level of competition, homesickness, or grades. Finally, there's the outside shot that one of the 7 footers will play well enough that they choose the NBA Draft.

Think of what the roster looked like in Fall 2009 (or what it projected to look like in Fall 2010) and compare it to what we have now. We've went from looking like we've acquired enough talent to compete for the Big Ten title to appearing to still be an NCAA bubble team.

I know the focus has been on Tubby's "old school" recruiting approach and his style of play, but how much has rumors of his departure hurt his recruiting?

[jovs]

I wonder if the perception of the program hasn't taken a hit from the things that happened last year. It certainly appears that way, especially with the local kids.

[Mother Vandelay]

Based on the quotes from some of the most respected and informed posters on Gopherhole, this is VERY concerning to me as a fan.

Couple that with Tubby & Co. striking out on nearly every single person that they've targeted in the Top 150 in the past few years (that isn't from MN), is there some undercurrent with recruits regarding Tubby's coaching style, personality, etc. that is making them pass us over? If so, what the heck is it? (I understand Johnny & Moonlight don't want to bring bad issues to light, but it seems to be a pretty big deal).

I've tried to keep quiet over the past few months regarding our recruiting efforts lately, but I'll have to admit; I'm becoming VERY CONCERNED.

I know FoT will pop on by here with a list about Tubby's glory days getting blue-chip recruiting classes at Kentucky, but is it just me, or do those days seem to be gone?

Tubby is an old school coach/recruiter; seemingly a disciplinarian (guys making a mistake get pulled nearly immediately), somewhat lacking in offensive sets (has anyone figured out what's going on out there?), and getting in on 2 and 3 star recruits at the 11th hour. With recruiters like Calipari, Williams, Coach K, and upstarts like Pastner changing how recruiting works (24/7 job, not 5-6 months out of the year), programs need to be cutting edge when their recruiting efforts.

With the exception of the 2 MN recruits (Williams & White), have we even had a sniff of a top-notch recruit in this year or next year's class?

No offense to Maverick, Oto, Eliason, etc., but these guys are not the types of players a Big 10 program needs to compete for Top 4-5 finishes, much less titles. We're paying our coach one of the top salaries in the country for a reason. I'd be fine with our progress at this point; we've come a long ways in 3 years from where we were. However, based on our recent recruiting efforts, I think we're going to be in BIG trouble in the very near future if we don't right this ship fast.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom, because I've been much happier in the past 2-3 years than I was with the Monson years...these are just some things I've been thinking about over the past year or so. Sorry for the long-windedness of this message, but I thought I'd just throw it out there and get your thoughts?
My feelings exactly. Recruits begged to play at Kentucky and Georgia is loaded with recruits every year, thats not the case at Minnesota. This staff does not seem to work as hard as other Big Ten staffs and it shows.

[mattw1067]

I know FoT will pop on by here with a list about Tubby's glory days getting blue-chip recruiting classes at Kentucky, but is it just me, or do those days seem to be gone?

I think that has a lot to do with it.

Also, just some food for thought... In the 6 seasons before Tubby coached Kentucky, he had 17, 15, 23, 24, 21, and 24 win seasons and those were in the MVC and SEC. I think many of you guys expect far too much out of Tubby and think that everything he touches will turn into gold. For the record, I do like Tubby and I think he has done a good (not great) job. I am just not joining in the ranks of those who expect a Big Ten title next year and Final Fours for the rest of his career. That's not to say I'm not hoping for it though...

[KyGopherfan]

Maturi could announce the building the practice facility. That might give the program a boost. Right now, there's a gray cloud hanging over the BB program at the U. It seems like the past several months has been beset with nothing but negative news...Jimmy Williams, Royce, Trevor, player transfers, etc., etc.

Also, Tubby hasn't signed an extension yet. Maturi has yet to make a determination about Trevor. There's a lot of things hanging out there that won't help recruiting. There's too much negativity associated with the program right now.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Based on the quotes from some of the most respected and informed posters on Gopherhole, this is VERY concerning to me as a fan.

Couple that with Tubby & Co. striking out on nearly every single person that they've targeted in the Top 150 in the past few years (that isn't from MN), is there some undercurrent with recruits regarding Tubby's coaching style, personality, etc. that is making them pass us over? If so, what the heck is it? (I understand Johnny & Moonlight don't want to bring bad issues to light, but it seems to be a pretty big deal).

I've tried to keep quiet over the past few months regarding our recruiting efforts lately, but I'll have to admit; I'm becoming VERY CONCERNED.

I know FoT will pop on by here with a list about Tubby's glory days getting blue-chip recruiting classes at Kentucky, but is it just me, or do those days seem to be gone?

Tubby is an old school coach/recruiter; seemingly a disciplinarian (guys making a mistake get pulled nearly immediately), somewhat lacking in offensive sets (has anyone figured out what's going on out there?), and getting in on 2 and 3 star recruits at the 11th hour. With recruiters like Calipari, Williams, Coach K, and upstarts like Pastner changing how recruiting works (24/7 job, not 5-6 months out of the year), programs need to be cutting edge with their recruiting efforts.

With the exception of the 2 MN recruits (Williams & White), have we even had a sniff of a top-notch recruit in this year or next year's class?

No offense to Maverick, Oto, Eliason, etc., but these guys are not the types of players a Big 10 program needs to compete for Top 4-5 finishes, much less titles. We're paying our coach one of the top salaries in the country for a reason. I'd be fine with our progress at this point; we've come a long ways in 3 years from where we were. However, based on our recent recruiting efforts, I think we're going to be in BIG trouble in the very near future if we don't right this ship fast.

I don't want to be all doom and gloom, because I've been much happier in the past 2-3 years than I was with the Monson years...these are just some things I've been thinking about over the past year or so. Sorry for the long-windedness of this message, but I thought I'd just throw it out there and get your thoughts?

Tubby had back-2-back Top 20 recruiting classes at Minnesota. 2008 and 2009, maybe you missed it.

Hollins, Eliason, and Walker are solid recruits but the class lacked a star (C Joseph). Add him and it's another Top 20 class.

[Friend Of Tubby]

I think that has a lot to do with it.

Also, just some food for thought... In the 6 seasons before Tubby coached Kentucky, he had 17, 15, 23, 24, 21, and 24 win seasons and those were in the MVC and SEC. I think many of you guys expect far too much out of Tubby and think that everything he touches will turn into gold. For the record, I do like Tubby and I think he has done a good (not great) job. I am just not joining in the ranks of those who expect a Big Ten title next year and Final Fours for the rest of his career. That's not to say I'm not hoping for it though...

His first season at Tulsa, he had 4 scholarship players at Tulsa. He recruited well (for that level) and made back-2-back Sweet 16 there. 2 of his recruits made the NBA. Can you name another Tulsa player who did that?

His two years at Georgia, he signed consecutive Top 20 classes. So he recruited well BEFORE he coached at UK.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Maturi could announce the building the practice facility. That might give the program a boost. Right now, there's a gray cloud hanging over the BB program at the U. It seems like the past several months has been beset with nothing but negative news...Jimmy Williams, Royce, Trevor, player transfers, etc., etc.

Also, Tubby hasn't signed an extension yet. Maturi has yet to make a determination about Trevor. There's a lot of things hanging out there that won't help recruiting. There's too much negativity associated with the program right now.

Plenty of negativity here among GH-ers. Success doesn't come from a negative atmosphere.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Gophers signed 5 recruits in 2008 class. 2 were JuCo recruits. Neither was Top 150 in HS. The other 3 were Top 150 rated (out of state) recruits.

Gophers signed 4 recruits in 2009 class. 3 were in-state recruits (all 3 were Top 150). The 4th was not Top 150 (Cobbs) but borderline at that level.

Gophers signed 3 recruits in 2010 class. 1 (Walker) is Top 150 recruit from out of state. 2 others (Hollins, Eliason) are borderline Top 150 recruits - Gibbons rates both in his Top 150. The final 2 (Osenieks, Ahanmisi) are not Top 150 recruits.

So (arguably) 3 of 5 in 2008 class. 3 of 4 in 2009. And 3 of 5 in 2010. In terms of Top 150 recruits, that is.

[ShowinGoldyLove]

Gophers signed...
Amazing that you wrote that, and come to a totally different conclusion. "Borderline," "Gibbons rates them," etc; you realize then that they are NOT Top 150?

Based on your stats, 4 out of 11 players (excluding 3 MN kids, 2 of which are gone/not able to play) were bona fide Top 150 recruits, with only 1 of the last 5 signees being a Top 150 player.

In addition, each year has gotten progressively worse in terms of recruits, with literally nothing doing for the 2011 nor 2012 class; zip, nada, zilch. And every player we've targeted in those classes so far has signed elsewhere. THAT is why I'm concerned; I know we got Joseph, Sampson, etc. in his first year, but it's been a bad trend downwards since then.

As a Gopher fan, it's very concerning.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Amazing that you wrote that, and come to a totally different conclusion. "Borderline," "Gibbons rates them," etc; you realize then that they are NOT Top 150?

Based on your stats, 4 out of 11 players (excluding 3 MN kids, 2 of which are gone/not able to play) were bona fide Top 150 recruits, with only 1 of the last 5 signees being a Top 150 player.

In addition, each year has gotten progressively worse in terms of recruits, with literally nothing doing for the 2011 nor 2012 class; zip, nada, zilch. And every player we've targeted in those classes so far has signed elsewhere. THAT is why I'm concerned; I know we got Joseph, Sampson, etc. in his first year, but it's been a bad trend downwards since then.

As a Gopher fan, it's very concerning.


2008 - signed two 4 Star and one 3 Star plus two Top 25 rated JuCo recruits.

2009 - signed one (each) 5 Star, 4 Star, 3 Star, 2 Star recruit. The 3 Star is Top 25 rated JuCo.

Arguably, the 2009 class was > than 2008 so that's not "progressively worse" as you put it.

2010 - signed three 3 Star and two lesser rated recruits.

5 Star = Top 25.
4 Star = Top 75 to 100.
3 Star = Top 150.

2011 - Gophers still have several good options and G and F positions. One top target has gone elsewhere.

2012 - Gophers are listed (among Top 5 choices) by several highly regarded players in this class.

Your negativity DOES NOT HELP at all.

[Ogee Oglethorpe]

Count me as one who is not concerned. First and foremost, the program is light years ahead of where it was when Monson left. The arrival of Tubby has meant a significant improvement, and along with it, some unrealistic expectations of some.

Take a look at the domino effect of what has happened in the last 8-10 months.

Trevor and Royce don't play a single minute for the Rodents this last year. Al Nolen misses the last half of the season. Those events easily caused the Gophers to finish 3-4 spots lower in the conference than where they finished.

More importantly, the loss of those guys resulted in a 1st round NCAA exit as opposed to potentially a Sweet 16 visit. THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

There's such a fine line between winning and losing and along with it, winning and losing recruits. There's a lot going on behind the scenes in the competition for some of these kids; sounds like Jesperson was a major uphill battle to begin with.

All that being said, whether or not Trevor plays the next 2 years for the Gophers is ENORMOUS, in my opinion. He fills a major need and I would imagine it would be a significant morale boost for the team as well. It would also relieve a good portion of the possible outside perception that there is any turmoil in the program.

If he can't play, that means essentially losing about 75% of that year's recruiting class (weighing Trevor and Royce more than the others in their incoming class). That's a big deal.

[TC-Monkey]

This staff does not seem to work as hard as other Big Ten staffs and it shows.

There's plenty of issues you might want to bring up, but i'm absolutely positive the work ethic of the staff is not an issue.

[GopherD]

Our staff does seem to be doing a better job of getting out there and identifying talent early. This year we've been hot on the trail on a number of guys, none of which are 5-stars, but the guys we have been in on have quite a few good offers (this matters more to me). Also, it looks like we are pretty well setup with the 2012 class with 7 offers out to kids and 5 of them are at 4-star status now...

Otherwise, with the current kids in the program, I don't really sense the negativity. Then again, I have pretty much zero insider sources. But, while our last class lacked overall star power, we did sign some high-character type kids which should help. Furthermore, even if Trevor doesn't play here, we will still have one of the best (maybe the best) front-court in the Big Ten conference. And you all should know that Tubby's offense flows through the post, and with the current stable of big men, we should be very good in that department.

We could still be very good next year by pounding the ball inside, rebounding, and playing tough defense. We just won't have the depth at guard we've had in the past with Tubby.

[minngg]

I am concerned. Tubby got a lot of national hype when he came to Minnesota and he parlayed that hype into a good class. The MN kids were next and Tubby reeled them in. However, that class has not panned out yet. My bigger concern is coaching and coaching style. Paying a coach top 5 money and finishing in the middle of the pack in the Big Ten is not getting it done. Plain and simple. Results matter. I am patient, but if Mbwake doesn't play this year, look for another .500 season for the Gophers. At what point do we expect more from Tubby?

[Moonlight]

I agree w/Ogee. Mostly. I hope we have Trevor, yet he is a tie to a disappointing year in terms of outcome for recruitment.

No matter the extenuating circumstances, last year was a failure as far as the success of our recruits is concerned. It was a drag on the whole season, killing any momentum Tubby might have been building. Do I blame Tubby? No. Do I blame Maturi? No. Lacking a crystal ball is the flaw. Yes, it could have been predicted that each could be a problem given the past, yet I don't see how Tubby could have passed on either.
Despite White's ability, I am glad to have him officially gone. No more attention and life being sucked out of the program into the ego of a non-player.

[XMan]

Our staff does seem to be doing a better job of getting out there and identifying talent early. This year we've been hot on the trail on a number of guys, none of which are 5-stars, but the guys we have been in on have quite a few good offers (this matters more to me). Also, it looks like we are pretty well setup with the 2012 class with 7 offers out to kids and 5 of them are at 4-star status now...

Otherwise, with the current kids in the program, I don't really sense the negativity. Then again, I have pretty much zero insider sources. But, while our last class lacked overall star power, we did sign some high-character type kids which should help. Furthermore, even if Trevor doesn't play here, we will still have one of the best (maybe the best) front-court in the Big Ten conference. And you all should know that Tubby's offense flows through the post, and with the current stable of big men, we should be very good in that department.

We could still be very good next year by pounding the ball inside, rebounding, and playing tough defense. We just won't have the depth at guard we've had in the past with Tubby.

Nice post Gopher D. With Sampson, Iverson and hopefully Mbakwe we have the best front-court in the big ten. I think Devoe and Williams are due for break out years, Hoff and Nolan bring experience. Plus Hollins should contribute as well.

Art is getting to everyone. Go Gophers.

[MN1nAZ]

Plenty of negativity here among GH-ers. Success doesn't come from a negative atmosphere.

A very appropriate comment. C'mon guys.

[bga1]

Tubby had back-2-back Top 20 recruiting classes at Minnesota. 2008 and 2009, maybe you missed it.

Hollins, Eliason, and Walker are solid recruits but the class lacked a star (C Joseph). Add him and it's another Top 20 class.

FOT - I just can't give him much credit for the 2009 class. It's bad luck that White and Mbakwe couldn't play and that Cobbs didn't pan out but you have to recruit players that end up playing for you to get credit for them.

[MN1nAZ]

I agree w/Ogee. Mostly. I hope we have Trevor, yet he is a tie to a disappointing year in terms of outcome for recruitment.

.....Despite White's ability, I am glad to have him officially gone. No more attention and life being sucked out of the program into the ego of a non-player.

I wish that he was gone but there was a post yesterday in another thread that RW is actively recruiting MN kids to ISU and that he is promoting Joe Coleman to join him there.

I've had people like RW in my life b4. The best way that I know of to deal with their disruptions, is to accept that they are what they are and give them time because in time they will destroy themselves.

[mattw1067]

Count me as one who is not concerned. First and foremost, the program is light years ahead of where it was when Monson left. The arrival of Tubby has meant a significant improvement, and along with it, some unrealistic expectations of some.

Take a look at the domino effect of what has happened in the last 8-10 months.

Trevor and Royce don't play a single minute for the Rodents this last year. Al Nolen misses the last half of the season. Those events easily caused the Gophers to finish 3-4 spots lower in the conference than where they finished.

More importantly, the loss of those guys resulted in a 1st round NCAA exit as opposed to potentially a Sweet 16 visit. THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

There's such a fine line between winning and losing and along with it, winning and losing recruits. There's a lot going on behind the scenes in the competition for some of these kids; sounds like Jesperson was a major uphill battle to begin with.

All that being said, whether or not Trevor plays the next 2 years for the Gophers is ENORMOUS, in my opinion. He fills a major need and I would imagine it would be a significant morale boost for the team as well. It would also relieve a good portion of the possible outside perception that there is any turmoil in the program.

If he can't play, that means essentially losing about 75% of that year's recruiting class (weighing Trevor and Royce more than the others in their incoming class). That's a big deal.

I could not agree more.

[uagain]

...is the reputation Tubby seems to be acquiring for failing to prepare talented kids for the NBA.

I think it was Chad Ford of ESPN who took Tubby to task last year for mishandling Rodney Williams. At one point early in the season Ford had Williams as a top-ten draft prospect. Even now, with comparatively little burn time, Ford has Williams ranked as the 18th best prospect in next summer's draft, should Williams declare early.

Tubby's old-school, tightly-controlled, make-a-mistake-and-you-sit, my-way-or-the-bench offensive system doesn't play too well with the best athletes. Why do we supopose Cory Joseph chose Texas? Because he thought Rick Barnes could prepare him for the NBA better than Tubby Smith can, plain and simple.

Count me among the concerned.

[fan of Ray Williams]

...is the reputation Tubby seems to be acquiring for failing to prepare talented kids for the NBA.

I think it was Chad Ford of ESPN who took Tubby to task last year for mishandling Rodney Williams. At one point early in the season Ford had Williams as a top-ten draft prospect. Even now, with comparatively little burn time, Ford has Williams ranked as the 18th best prospect in next summer's draft, should Williams declare early.

Tubby's old-school, tightly-controlled, make-a-mistake-and-you-sit, my-way-or-the-bench offensive system doesn't play too well with the best athletes. Why do we supopose Cory Joseph chose Texas? Because he thought Rick Barnes could prepare him for the NBA better than Tubby Smith can, plain and simple.

Count me among the concerned.

And you know this how....?

[Ogee Oglethorpe]

I am concerned. Tubby got a lot of national hype when he came to Minnesota and he parlayed that hype into a good class. The MN kids were next and Tubby reeled them in. However, that class has not panned out yet. My bigger concern is coaching and coaching style. Paying a coach top 5 money and finishing in the middle of the pack in the Big Ten is not getting it done. Plain and simple. Results matter. I am patient, but if Mbwake doesn't play this year, look for another .500 season for the Gophers. At what point do we expect more from Tubby?

I guess I don't understand your logic. If Trevor doesn't play, expect another .500 season... and somehow Trevor not playing is Tubby's fault, or the lack of quality coaching?

I will certainly make this concession. Had Royce, Trevor, and Nolen played the entire season for the Rodents and they still finished where they did this year with a first round departure, then YES, I think Tubby should be held accountable, he'd be doing a substandard job coaching and recruiting, and I would be nervous and concerned about the direction of the program. Absolutely.

That's not how it panned out though. Royce, Trevor, and to an extent even Al, were almost completely out of control of the coaching staff.

Real world: I'm a Project Manager and I win a major project by proposing a staff of 6-8 of my best people. Shortly before the project breaks ground, 3 of my best employees either leave the company for higher paying jobs or a relocation to a more attractive locale, you're saying it's entirely on the Project Manager if the project doesn't go off as smoothly as it could have? Makes no sense.

[bga1]

I guess I don't understand your logic. If Trevor doesn't play, expect another .500 season... and somehow Trevor not playing is Tubby's fault, or the lack of quality coaching?

I will certainly make this concession. Had Royce, Trevor, and Nolen played the entire season for the Rodents and they still finished where they did this year with a first round departure, then YES, I think Tubby should be held accountable, he'd be doing a substandard job coaching and recruiting, and I would be nervous and concerned about the direction of the program. Absolutely.

That's not how it panned out though. Royce, Trevor, and to an extent even Al, were almost completely out of control of the coaching staff.

Real world: I'm a Project Manager and I win a major project by proposing a staff of 6-8 of my best people. Shortly before the project breaks ground, 3 of my best employees either leave the company for higher paying jobs or a relocation to a more attractive locale, you're saying it's entirely on the Project Manager if the project doesn't go off as smoothly as it could have? Makes no sense.


Ogee- I mostly agree with you. I think most of the concern that is being seen with Tubby is centered on recruiting. He does some unusual stuff as far as game coaching, but talent for talent he wins more than his share so you shrug it off and say- hey it works. But the recruiting appears to be losing some momentum since the initial class. Last year he signed three top local guys but all were high risk for one reason or another and two now can't play. At the end of the day it isn't where your class ranks when you recruit them - it's what they put out when you put them on court if they ever appear there. Now the fact that we are seeming to have so much trouble getting this next class off the ground is certainly an issue. It's not time to panic but the signs haven't been great lately.

[underground629]

Not sure what "literally nothing doing for the 2011 nor 2012 class" means, but I think you're getting at something. We're so screwed for the 2012 class. So many teams already have commits for that year...


Amazing that you wrote that, and come to a totally different conclusion. "Borderline," "Gibbons rates them," etc; you realize then that they are NOT Top 150?

Based on your stats, 4 out of 11 players (excluding 3 MN kids, 2 of which are gone/not able to play) were bona fide Top 150 recruits, with only 1 of the last 5 signees being a Top 150 player.

In addition, each year has gotten progressively worse in terms of recruits, with literally nothing doing for the 2011 nor 2012 class; zip, nada, zilch. And every player we've targeted in those classes so far has signed elsewhere. THAT is why I'm concerned; I know we got Joseph, Sampson, etc. in his first year, but it's been a bad trend downwards since then.

As a Gopher fan, it's very concerning.

[underground629]

Barnes "prepares" players better for the NBA because he brings in way more talented players. He brings in way more talented players because he coaches at Texas. If Tubby were coaching at Texas he'd be sending players to the NBA at an extremely high rate. It's pretty simple.


...is the reputation Tubby seems to be acquiring for failing to prepare talented kids for the NBA.

I think it was Chad Ford of ESPN who took Tubby to task last year for mishandling Rodney Williams. At one point early in the season Ford had Williams as a top-ten draft prospect. Even now, with comparatively little burn time, Ford has Williams ranked as the 18th best prospect in next summer's draft, should Williams declare early.

Tubby's old-school, tightly-controlled, make-a-mistake-and-you-sit, my-way-or-the-bench offensive system doesn't play too well with the best athletes. Why do we supopose Cory Joseph chose Texas? Because he thought Rick Barnes could prepare him for the NBA better than Tubby Smith can, plain and simple.

Count me among the concerned.

[BigGopherFan]

...is the reputation Tubby seems to be acquiring for failing to prepare talented kids for the NBA.

I think it was Chad Ford of ESPN who took Tubby to task last year for mishandling Rodney Williams. At one point early in the season Ford had Williams as a top-ten draft prospect. Even now, with comparatively little burn time, Ford has Williams ranked as the 18th best prospect in next summer's draft, should Williams declare early.

Tubby's old-school, tightly-controlled, make-a-mistake-and-you-sit, my-way-or-the-bench offensive system doesn't play too well with the best athletes. Why do we supopose Cory Joseph chose Texas? Because he thought Rick Barnes could prepare him for the NBA better than Tubby Smith can, plain and simple.

Count me among the concerned.

I agree. John Wooden played seven guys in his regular rotations. I think he did pretty decent. I feel like Tubby simply doesn't want to change from his 10-11 man rotation.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Barnes "prepares" players better for the NBA because he brings in way more talented players. He brings in way more talented players because he coaches at Texas. If Tubby were coaching at Texas he'd be sending players to the NBA at an extremely high rate. It's pretty simple.

Tubby had 3 players at Tulsa drafted by NBA. He had 2 players at Georgia drafted. He had 16 players at UK drafted and/or make the NBA. That's 21. He's coached 19 years.

What are Barnes' numbers? Clemson, Providence, Texas.

[akgopher]

I'm not concerned, but I think Coach Smith has hurt his brand here and contributed some to the momentum stalling here.

-Every ESPN/CBS insider swears that he's sending out feelers that he's not happy here. Local media types are reporting it too. I take that as he's talking. It can't help recruiting.

-His staff probably embarrassed Joe Coleman last year in regards to his offer/no offer. Wouldn't blame him Joe if he told the U to stick it and signed with Bo Ryan.

I thought keeping Coach Smith was a big deal. I hope he stays, but we'll be fine if he bolts. We're not only paying him well, but also giving him the budget to employ Vince Taylor. If he leaves, we'll get an equivalent to a Tony Bennett and allow him budget to hire a power asst. like Vince Taylor. The U is the only show in town and the local talent pool is good enough to build around if you can keep the bulk of it here.

[Ogee Oglethorpe]

Ogee- I mostly agree with you. But the recruiting appears to be losing some momentum since the initial class. Last year he signed three top local guys but all were high risk for one reason or another and two now can't play. At the end of the day it isn't where your class ranks when you recruit them - it's what they put out when you put them on court if they ever appear there.

That's why I think the significance of whether or not Trevor suits up this fall is seriously magnified, fair or unfair.

If Trevor plays and plays well for the next two years (along with some development from Rodney), the class is suddenly considered a success for the most part. That translates into success on the court (more than likely), which likely maintains/improves momentum on the recruiting front.

If Trevor leaves the school/program, this team will likely have to over-achieve a little bit on the court next season in order for Tubby to maintain or improve his recruiting efforts.

[steffyboy]

It's pretty simple. I'm not concerned yet. 2008 was a very good class. 2009 was an awesome class which has not panned out thus far. 2010 looks to be a below average class (Walker and Hollins good, Eliason a run of the mill college center and Maverick a reach), but it hinged on Joseph and not getting him was the factor. I don't like the fact that one player made or broke a class. If this year's class sucks then there is reason for concern. I can understand with what has happened lately that some would be concerned, but I'm trying to be optimistic. If this year's class sucks I will join the concerned group. Hopefully that won't happen.

[underground629]

I was backing up Tubby. I'm saying that Barnes is currently putting more players in the NBA because he's coaching at Texas. If Barnes were coaching at MN and Tubby at Texas, Tubby would easily be putting more players in the NBA.


Tubby had 3 players at Tulsa drafted by NBA. He had 2 players at Georgia drafted. He had 16 players at UK drafted and/or make the NBA. That's 21. He's coached 19 years.

What are Barnes' numbers? Clemson, Providence, Texas.

[Friend Of Tubby]

I was backing up Tubby. I'm saying that Barnes is currently putting more players in the NBA because he's coaching at Texas. If Barnes were coaching at MN and Tubby at Texas, Tubby would easily be putting more players in the NBA.

Barnes is 67% overall for his career and 19-18 in NCAA games. He recruits well and some of his players make the NBA. But his coaching numbers are just decent, nothing more.

Tubby is 71% overall and 29-15 in NCAA games. His coaching numbers are better than Barnes.

[uagain]

FoT wrote:

"Tubby had 3 players at Tulsa drafted by NBA. He had 2 players at Georgia drafted. He had 16 players at UK drafted and/or make the NBA. That's 21. He's coached 19 years."

That was then, FoT. This is now. The game, at both the collegiate and the NBA levels, has changed dramatically. Kids today have a sense of entitlement; they expect to have everything handed to them and don't want to work for it. The great ones (and even some delusional good ones) go where they think the style of play will showcase their talents and mesh best with the game as it's played in the NBA so they can be one and done. That ain't Minnesota.

So, one might say, we can simply recruit on the next tier--the very good players who, when paired with other very good players who will stick around for two or three years minimum, can accomplish plenty. Except we're not getting those guys either. One by one, the Jespersons and Uthoffs on our list are committing elsewhere. And now Joe Coleman is perilously close to doing what was unthinkable nine months ago: reject Minnesota.

Look, I admire Tubby enormously, as both a coach and a person. I'm glad he's here. But we are losing ground on the recruiting front. When we can't lock up a national talent like Joe Coleman, a local guy with a thoroughbred U of M pedigree, then it is cause for concern.

[Juicer]

Barnes is 67% overall for his career and 19-18 in NCAA games. He recruits well and some of his players make the NBA. But his coaching numbers are just decent, nothing more.

Tubby is 71% overall and 29-15 in NCAA games. His coaching numbers are better than Barnes.

You are extremely annoying to read. I would ignore it but you post like a teenager text messages, like really fast dude! Your posts are everywhere!!! Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You sound like a stock pumper; "take a position in GMBH, it's going to the moon, man!!!"

Please at least acknowledge that you are at least a little disappointed in the direction of the program. Anyone who is a fan of this team at least has some doubts. I really like Tubby, and am glad we have him, but I am disappointed we aren't more consistent in our recruiting, and there is so much question about the direction of the program. For example, I just know that Wisconsin is going to be a top 25 team for years to come, as long as Bo Ryan is there. Can we say the same for our Gophs?

[fan of Ray Williams]

Friend Of Tubby
Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,471



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by underground629
I was backing up Tubby. I'm saying that Barnes is currently putting more players in the NBA because he's coaching at Texas. If Barnes were coaching at MN and Tubby at Texas, Tubby would easily be putting more players in the NBA.

Barnes is 67% overall for his career and 19-18 in NCAA games. He recruits well and some of his players make the NBA. But his coaching numbers are just decent, nothing more.

Tubby is 71% overall and 29-15 in NCAA games. His coaching numbers are better than Barnes.
Slow down FoT, take a breath. My gosh, underground629 was on the same page as you. It isn't you and Tubby against the world.

[jovs]

...is the reputation Tubby seems to be acquiring for failing to prepare talented kids for the NBA.

I think it was Chad Ford of ESPN who took Tubby to task last year for mishandling Rodney Williams. At one point early in the season Ford had Williams as a top-ten draft prospect. Even now, with comparatively little burn time, Ford has Williams ranked as the 18th best prospect in next summer's draft, should Williams declare early.

Tubby's old-school, tightly-controlled, make-a-mistake-and-you-sit, my-way-or-the-bench offensive system doesn't play too well with the best athletes. Why do we supopose Cory Joseph chose Texas? Because he thought Rick Barnes could prepare him for the NBA better than Tubby Smith can, plain and simple.

Count me among the concerned.

I think your concerns are valid, but it is a two way street. Do you take the top prospects, the one and done's that want complete freedom to showcase their offensive skills, at the detriment to the team.

I take Westbrook as an example, he had offensive skills to create his own shot, which he exhibited in spots throughout his Gopher career. Under Monson he developed nill defensive skills. By the time he was done he was a decent defensive player. He had to take on some of the responsibilities that had fallen to Nolen on the defensive side of the ball and did a decent job.

Their were times the Offense sputtered last year but they always competed and played tough defense. I would take this over what I have seen from Texas or Kentucky any day.

[minngg]

Lot's of excuses here for Tubby I see. There is a difference between "let's fire the guy" and "concerned". The question was, who is concerned? Anyone not concerned that we are paying a guy top 5 money and haven't finished above the middle of the Big Ten is a very optimistic person in my mind.

Tubby should not be given a pass because of Trevor and Royce's problems. they are his responsibility. I personally think Tubby could have handled Royce's situation better. He might still be here had Tubby done more. It isn't Tubby's style, but nonetheless, Tubby left Royce to deal with his mess without much support.

Finally, the recruiting lately has been a concern. If we hired Tubby to get us back to the middle of the Big Ten, that is where I see the current talent leading us. If we want more from a top 5 coach, like a Big Ten title, I do not see the current level of recruiting accomplishing that goal.

Do you?

[scher215]

Tubby should not be given a pass because of Trevor and Royce's problems. they are his responsibility. I personally think Tubby could have handled Royce's situation better. He might still be here had Tubby done more. It isn't Tubby's style, but nonetheless, Tubby left Royce to deal with his mess without much support.

I must have missed the article where Tubby stole clothes and assaulted a security guard? Thought that might have been bigger news. Also missed where Tubby dropped out of school a week before his charges were resolved??? The media here sure loves Tubby that they are saying Royce did these things, when turns out, it was Tubby.

And yeah, Tubby really dropped the ball with Royce and Trevor. That must be why they both speak so highly of him.



Finally, the recruiting lately has been a concern. If we hired Tubby to get us back to the middle of the Big Ten, that is where I see the current talent leading us. If we want more from a top 5 coach, like a Big Ten title, I do not see the current level of recruiting accomplishing that goal.

Do you?

Ya, i mean the nations top 3-point shooter, two 4 star big men, a 4-star guard, and a lightning quick PG sure do not spell success. Especially when that same team a year younger knocked off MSU, Purdue, Butler, and Wisconsin in one season. But you are probably right. I am sure they will be terrible all of a sudden.

[minngg]

a) I didn't say he dropped the ball on them. I said he is responsible for them.

b) So you are satifisfied with the current sub .500 record after three years? You must be.

c) Who is the number 1 shooting guard and the lightening quick pg?

d) I never said terrible. I said "middle of the pack". Don't put words in my mouth.

[dpodoll68]

Lot's of excuses here for Tubby I see. There is a difference between "let's fire the guy" and "concerned". The question was, who is concerned? Anyone not concerned that we are paying a guy top 5 money and haven't finished above the middle of the Big Ten is a very optimistic person in my mind.

Tubby should not be given a pass because of Trevor and Royce's problems. they are his responsibility. I personally think Tubby could have handled Royce's situation better. He might still be here had Tubby done more. It isn't Tubby's style, but nonetheless, Tubby left Royce to deal with his mess without much support.

Finally, the recruiting lately has been a concern. If we hired Tubby to get us back to the middle of the Big Ten, that is where I see the current talent leading us. If we want more from a top 5 coach, like a Big Ten title, I do not see the current level of recruiting accomplishing that goal.

Do you?

1) Tubby isn't paid Top 5 money. I don't know how you got that idea in your head.

2) Top 5 pay ≠ Top 5 coach

3) Even if he were either (paid or results, which he isn't), Top 5 coaches don't guarantee Top 5 results. The players still have to play the game.

4) If your expectation is that the Gophers are going to be a Top 5 program because they have a Top 5 coach (which, again, they don't), you are going to be severely disappointed.

5) Tubby is to blame for Royce White doing all the idiotic things he has done, and for Trevor Mbakwe being charged with a felony? He is responsible for Al Nolen being a dumba$$ and not keeping himself eligible? I mean, seriously? If you truly believe any of those things, you may as well stop following Gopher sports, because you will never be satisfied.

[scher215]

a) I didn't say he dropped the ball on them. I said he is responsible for them.

b) So you are satifisfied with the current sub .500 record after three years? You must be.

c) Who is the number 1 shooting guard and the lightening quick pg?

d) I never said terrible. I said "middle of the pack". Don't put words in my mouth.

Are you on the right board? This is University of Minnesota, not Penn State.

a) Not even going to address that moronic statement. Tubby doesn't follow students around 24/7

b) Tubby is not even close to below .500 at Minnesota, In fact they are 63 - 39 in his 3 seasons, a win percentage of .618. For non-math majors out there, that is not sub .500.

c) Blake Hoffarber led the nation in 3 point percentage much of last year. Devoe Joseph is a 4-star guard out of HS. and Ask Evan Turner about how quick Al Nolen is.

d) Its called hyperbole. I was exagerating for the point of emphasis. I believe most people got that.

[minngg]

1) Tubby isn't paid Top 5 money. I don't know how you got that idea in your head.

2) Top 5 pay ≠ Top 5 coach

3) Even if he were either (paid or results, which he isn't), Top 5 coaches don't guarantee Top 5 results. The players still have to play the game.

4) If your expectation is that the Gophers are going to be a Top 5 program because they have a Top 5 coach (which, again, they don't), you are going to be severely disappointed.

5) Tubby is to blame for Royce White doing all the idiotic things he has done, and for Trevor Mbakwe being charged with a felony? He is responsible for Al Nolen being a dumba$$ and not keeping himself eligible? I mean, seriously? If you truly believe any of those things, you may as well stop following Gopher sports, because you will never be satisfied.

When Tubby was hired he was a top 5 paid coach in the country. Now he is is 9th (last I looked). I do not expect him to be the 9th best program in the country. I do expect to contend for Big Ten titles.

As far as Royce and Trevor go, if Brewster recruits players that get kicked out of school, I hold him responsible. If Tubby's players do the same, I hold him responsible. It isn't his fault, but they are players that he recruited and not holding him responsible if they do not play, is a cop out. Same with Nolen.

I appreciate your concern about me as a Gopher fan. I have followed Gopher sports for 40 years. I am not satisifed with the football and basketball programs right now. Since you are satisifed with the basketball program, I applaud the high standard you have set for the program.

[minngg]

Are you on the right board? This is University of Minnesota, not Penn State.

a) Not even going to address that moronic statement. Tubby doesn't follow students around 24/7

b) Tubby is not even close to below .500 at Minnesota, In fact they are 63 - 39 in his 3 seasons, a win percentage of .618. For non-math majors out there, that is not sub .500.

c) Blake Hoffarber led the nation in 3 point percentage much of last year. Devoe Joseph is a 4-star guard out of HS. and Ask Evan Turner about how quick Al Nolen is.

d) Its called hyperbole. I was exagerating for the point of emphasis. I believe most people got that.


Tubby is sub .500 in the Big Ten as my first post indicated. Are you proud? Blake Hoffarber was not a Tubby recruit and he was on the 6th place Gopher team last year. Nolen? Ask Lucas how quick Nolen is. Ask any coach if Nolen can shoot, drive to the basket or run an offense. Apparently, Tubby doesn't think so. The Evan Turner game was Turner's first back after a long injury. Nolen is not a starting pg on a Big Ten title team. No way.

[dpodoll68]

When Tubby was hired he was a top 5 paid coach in the country. Now he is is 9th. I do not expect him to be the 9th best program in the country. I do expect to contend for Big Ten titles.

As far as Royce and Trevor go, if Brewster recruits players that get kicked out of school, I hold him responsible. If Tubby's players do the same, I hold him responsible. It isn't his fault, but they are players that he recruited and not holding him responsible if they do not play, is a cop out. Same with Nolen.

I appreciate your concern about me as a Gopher fan. I have followed Gopher sports for 40 years. I am not satisifed with the football and basketball programs right now. Since you are satisifed with the basketball program, I applaud the high standard you have set for the program.

I love it when people think that things will just magically turn around for the better, especially when fortunes are centered on the lives and accomplishments of 18-22 year old kids.

The Gophers were 9-22 only three seasons ago? That's not my problem! Well, they got a good coach, so they better be winning multiple tournament games by the 3rd year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@!@!!!111one

The Gophers haven't won a conference title in 43 years? Who cares? Big deal!!! Tim Brewster needs to have us playing in New Year's Day games by his 3rd season!!!!!11!!1@!@@one

[minngg]

I love it when people think that things will just magically turn around for the better, especially when fortunes are centered on the lives and accomplishments of 18-22 year old kids.

The Gophers were 9-22 only three seasons ago? That's not my problem! Well, they got a good coach, so they better be winning multiple tournament games by the 3rd year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@!@!!!111one

The Gophers haven't won a conference title in 43 years? Who cares? Big deal!!! Tim Brewster needs to have us playing in New Year's Day games by his 3rd season!!!!!11!!1@!@@one

Nice rant, but I never said anything you are ranting about. I said I have concerns. Do you know what that word means? If Trevor does not play this year, I see another 6th place finish. I do not think that Tubby is currently recruiting talent for a championship run. Sorry if that offends you. Baskeytball is easier to turn around than football. 4 years is plenty of time to make a difference. Do I think we should fire Tubby? Not at all. He is a solid coach and I am hopeful that he will get us to the point where we can contend. That does not mean I do not have concerns right now. I do.

[Drex96]

Plenty of negativity here among GH-ers. Success doesn't come from a negative atmosphere.

Bingo! Don't forget that Joe Coleman's brother also spent a year under Tubby's "tutelage." I got
stoned last season for saying "people inside the basketball world" talk amongst themselves, (especially with the advent of the internet) but that Cory Joseph song and dance was just to benefit Devoe, CJ NEVER planned to sign with the Gophers.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure some things out--if you pay close attention to the facts, not just your personal preferences/prejudices/University public relations posts.

[dpodoll68]

Nice rant, but I never said anything you are ranting about. I said I have concerns. Do you know what that word means? If Trevor does not play this year, I see another 6th place finish. I do not think that Tubby is currently recruiting talent for a championship run. Sorry if that offends you. Baskeytball is easier to turn around than football. 4 years is plenty of time to make a difference. Do I think we should fire Tubby? Not at all. He is a solid coach and I am hopeful that he will get us to the point where we can contend. That does not mean I do not have concerns right now. I do.

First of all, it's only been 3 years. In terms of calendar years, seasons, whatever. Three seasons of basketball. He was hired on March 22, 2007. That means he has been here 3 years, 4 months, and 1 day. If you want to call that "four," be my guest, but I would call it three, especially considering the whole "3 season" thing.

Secondly, what on earth do you mean by "make a difference"? Do you realize how often the Gophers had been to the tournament before Tubby got here? One (1) time in sixteen seasons! Tubby has taken them there two seasons in a row.

Do you realize how many times Minnesota had 3 consecutive 20-win seasons before Tubby came here? That would be 0.0 times.

Do you realize that Tubby took virtually the same roster that went 9-22 (3-13) the year before, and went 20-14 (8-10) with them? And you're holding that "sub-.500 Big Ten record" against him? Unbelievable!

You can pretend Minnesota is some historic basketball powerhouse, and that Tubby is driving the well-oiled ship into the ground. I prefer to deal in reality, and realize that this institution is extremely lucky to have Orlando Smith as our head coach for as long as he will have us.

[bga1]

First of all, it's only been 3 years. In terms of calendar years, seasons, whatever. Three seasons of basketball. He was hired on March 22, 2007. That means he has been here 3 years, 4 months, and 1 day. If you want to call that "four," be my guest, but I would call it three, especially considering the whole "3 season" thing.

Secondly, what on earth do you mean by "make a difference"? Do you realize how often the Gophers had been to the tournament before Tubby got here? One (1) time in sixteen seasons! Tubby has taken them there two seasons in a row.

Do you realize how many times Minnesota had 3 consecutive 20-win seasons before Tubby came here? That would be 0.0 times.

Do you realize that Tubby took virtually the same roster that went 9-22 (3-13) the year before, and went 20-14 (8-10) with them? And you're holding that "sub-.500 Big Ten record" against him? Unbelievable!

You can pretend Minnesota is some historic basketball powerhouse, and that Tubby is driving the well-oiled ship into the ground. I prefer to deal in reality, and realize that this institution is extremely lucky to have Orlando Smith as our head coach for as long as he will have us.

You make good points. But lets also not pretend that this is "your daddy's 20 win seasons". It's a ton easier to win 20 than it used to be considering that there are more games and that we are serving up cupcakes for 11 out of the 1st 13 games in a lot of years. Personally if someone said your program will win exactly 20 games for the next 10 years I'd be unhappy. I'd much rather have us make a serious run at a regular season Big ten championship every 3 years and mix in a few 15 win seasons while we rebuild periodically. Doing what it takes every year just to be decent is not what I am looking for, especially while the coach is a big name $2 million dollar coach. This is the time. We need to go higher- much higher over these next two years. This needs to be a good recruiting season as well.

[minngg]

First of all, it's only been 3 years. In terms of calendar years, seasons, whatever. Three seasons of basketball. He was hired on March 22, 2007. That means he has been here 3 years, 4 months, and 1 day. If you want to call that "four," be my guest, but I would call it three, especially considering the whole "3 season" thing.

Secondly, what on earth do you mean by "make a difference"? Do you realize how often the Gophers had been to the tournament before Tubby got here? One (1) time in sixteen seasons! Tubby has taken them there two seasons in a row.

Do you realize how many times Minnesota had 3 consecutive 20-win seasons before Tubby came here? That would be 0.0 times.

Do you realize that Tubby took virtually the same roster that went 9-22 (3-13) the year before, and went 20-14 (8-10) with them? And you're holding that "sub-.500 Big Ten record" against him? Unbelievable!

You can pretend Minnesota is some historic basketball powerhouse, and that Tubby is driving the well-oiled ship into the ground. I prefer to deal in reality, and realize that this institution is extremely lucky to have Orlando Smith as our head coach for as long as he will have us.

You sure like to put words in my mouth. I never said he was running the program into the ground. I never said it was a well-oiled machine. However, I also will never settle for mediocrity. You have apparently. The Gophers have played very weak schedules since Tubby arrived. The NC schedule has been ridiculously weak. My biggest concern is Big Ten record. You want to compare him with Monson? Wow, nice benchmark.

Tubby will be going into his 4th Big Ten season this year. What should we be happy with? Another .500 record and squeaking into the tourney or should we shoot for what Wisconsin has accomplished? When do you see us moving to the next level or should we just be happy we aren't 3-13 anymore?

[BleedGopher]

Tubby is sub .500 in the Big Ten as my first post indicated. Are you proud? Blake Hoffarber was not a Tubby recruit and he was on the 6th place Gopher team last year. Nolen? Ask Lucas how quick Nolen is. Ask any coach if Nolen can shoot, drive to the basket or run an offense. Apparently, Tubby doesn't think so. The Evan Turner game was Turner's first back after a long injury. Nolen is not a starting pg on a Big Ten title team. No way.

The Gopher game was NOT Turner's first game back after the injury.

Go Gophers!!

[scher215]

The Gopher game was NOT Turner's first game back after the injury.

Go Gophers!!

I thought Andy Katz said Turner didn't even play?

[minngg]

The Gopher game was NOT Turner's first game back after the injury.

Go Gophers!!

His first full game back. Sorry for the error.

[dpodoll68]

You sure like to put words in my mouth. I never said he was running the program into the ground. I never said it was a well-oiled machine. However, I also will never settle for mediocrity. You have apparently.

Since when is realizing where the program was before Tubby got here, and realizing where it is now, settling for mediocrity? Which part of "1 tournament appearance in 16 seasons" vs. "2 tournament appearances in 3 seasons" did you not understand?


The Gophers have played very weak schedules since Tubby arrived. The NC schedule has been ridiculously weak. My biggest concern is Big Ten record.

Everyone keeps saying the Gophers play these ridiculously weak non-con schedules. While that may be true to some extent, they're somehow good enough to have granted us two at-large bids over the last two seasons. Would you rather win 20-22 games and be in the tournament, or win 17-19 and be in the NIT? I'll take the former, thanks.


You want to compare him with Monson? Wow, nice benchmark.

No, how about I go ahead and compare him to all Gophers coaches, ever.

There have been 17 coaches in Gophers men's basketball history. One (1) has 3 consecutive 20-win seasons. Two (2) have consecutive NCAA tournament appearances (Haskins, 1989-90, being the other). How do you like them apples?


Tubby will be going into his 4th Big Ten season this year. What should we be happy with? Another .500 record and squeaking into the tourney or should we shoot for what Wisconsin has accomplished?

Ahh, now we get to the real crux of the matter. You're jealous of Wisconsin and Bo Ryan. Tubby is supposed to turn water into wine and be contending for Big Ten championships by his 4th year. Never mind the fact that Ryan took over a well-established program that had gone to 3 tournaments (and an NIT) in 5 years under Dick Bennett. Tubby took over a team that had bottomed out and had not gone to a tournament in 17 years. Also ignore the fact that they had gone to the Final Four two years prior, while Minnesota has never been to a Final Four, and not to an Elite Eight in 17 years at the time.

Recruits are supposed to just ignore the facts and blindly come play for Tubby because he has a national championship he won 12 years ago and he earns a large salary. Now I understand completely.


When do you see us moving to the next level or should we just be happy we aren't 3-13 anymore?

Please enlighten me as to where the progress is not occurring:

(2006-07) (9-22, 3-13)
2007-08 20-14, 8-10, 2 wins in BT tourney, L in 1st round of NIT
2008-09 22-11, 9-9, 1 win in BT tourney, L in 1st round of NCAA
2009-10 21-14, 9-9 (with 60% of starting lineup missing either all or majority of season), 3 wins in BT tourney, L in 1st round of NCAA

While you're showing me where the progress is not occurring, please also enlighten me as to why a program that is historically a mediocre-to-poor Big Ten team is suddenly entitled to conference contention and deep tourney runs every year because they pay a high salary to a coach.

(P.S. Why are you castigating Tubby for a 4th season that hasn't even happened yet?)

[underground629]

I wasn't talking about his coaching or even really his recruiting ability. I was just saying that Barnes is able to put so many players in the NBA because he coaches at Texas. Monson could put a decent amount of players in the NBA coaching there. Texas is going to get quality recruits regardless of who the coach is.


Barnes is 67% overall for his career and 19-18 in NCAA games. He recruits well and some of his players make the NBA. But his coaching numbers are just decent, nothing more.

Tubby is 71% overall and 29-15 in NCAA games. His coaching numbers are better than Barnes.

[underground629]

Hahah, thank you. I'm glad someone else understood what I was saying.


Friend Of Tubby
Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,471



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by underground629
I was backing up Tubby. I'm saying that Barnes is currently putting more players in the NBA because he's coaching at Texas. If Barnes were coaching at MN and Tubby at Texas, Tubby would easily be putting more players in the NBA.

Barnes is 67% overall for his career and 19-18 in NCAA games. He recruits well and some of his players make the NBA. But his coaching numbers are just decent, nothing more.

Tubby is 71% overall and 29-15 in NCAA games. His coaching numbers are better than Barnes.
Slow down FoT, take a breath. My gosh, underground629 was on the same page as you. It isn't you and Tubby against the world.

[jovs]

Sports are highlighted by individuals that tend to flock to teams or teamates that have had some success. This is true at the high school level (Hopkins), College (Kentucky), and Pro's (Miami). All it is going to take is to contend for a Big Ten Title and reach the Sweet 16 to turn the perception around. Without that it is going to be tough going on the recruiting end.

[bga1]

Sports are highlighted by individuals that tend to flock to teams or teamates that have had some success. This is true at the high school level (Hopkins), College (Kentucky), and Pro's (Miami). All it is going to take is to contend for a Big Ten Title and reach the Sweet 16 to turn the perception around. Without that it is going to be tough going on the recruiting end.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner at post #59 in the thread. This is correct. Tubby has the next few years to open that window. We need a very good year and soon.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Some of Barnes' players make it to NBA. I think Tubby has a better track record (over 15 years) than Barnes in terms of players-to-NBA.

Texas is a great place to recruit. Austin is a great city. Weather is gorgeous. No pressure to W at football school. Kansas is the dominant Big 12 program, not Texas.

[notagopherfan]

Scotty Hopson who plays for Tennessee, supposed to be this big one and done guy chose Tennessee over UK. He was from Hopkinsville, KY, a Mcdonalds AA but he's been pretty sub par for the Vols in 2 years on the court. Tubby never recruited that kid and neither did Gillispie. I don't know if Hopson will make the NBA, he might but his chances are no better than the guy from Kentucky we took, Darius Miller.

There's not huge talent up your way, izzo has got detroit locked down, the northeastern kids end up in the big east. So you have to get Juco guys about every year and hope to land 1 or 2 out of state and the best your state can produce, that's about it. But sometimes even the local kids aren't a good fit as you guys are well aware of.

Chicago is about the only other city close enough and many of those kids end up at the more elite programs. How many kids from the south want to spend a winter in Minnesota? Apparently Sampson III and that's about it.

[Go Gophs eh?]

Scotty Hopson who plays for Tennessee, supposed to be this big one and done guy chose Tennessee over UK. He was from Hopkinsville, KY, a Mcdonalds AA but he's been pretty sub par for the Vols in 2 years on the court. Tubby never recruited that kid and neither did Gillispie. I don't know if Hopson will make the NBA, he might but his chances are no better than the guy from Kentucky we took, Darius Miller.

There's not huge talent up your way, izzo has got detroit locked down, the northeastern kids end up in the big east. So you have to get Juco guys about every year and hope to land 1 or 2 out of state and the best your state can produce, that's about it. But sometimes even the local kids aren't a good fit as you guys are well aware of.

Chicago is about the only other city close enough and many of those kids end up at the more elite programs. How many kids from the south want to spend a winter in Minnesota? Apparently Sampson III and that's about it.

More kentucky fans.... Actually we have NO juco players on our team, and there is more talent in the midwest than in the south. I don't know if you have noticed, but the SEC is a weak basketball conference. If you don't agree, please look at the players that have and are coming out of Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio etc. who has kentucky producd in talent lately that is actually from kentucky? pretty sure your "recruits" if you can't call them paid employees are not from the south in 2011.

[dpodoll68]

Actually we have NO juco players on our team

Come again?

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics/200/WY/WYCRQNOCDSGZHCG.20091021212649.jpg


who has kentucky producd in talent lately that is actually from kentucky?

What's your point? Kentucky doesn't have to recruit Kentucky to be successful. They can more or less pick and choose from the top players in the country. Minnesota cannot be successful without doing well in Minnesota and the surrounding states.

[Go Gophs eh?]

TM is not just some juco player we picked up to fill roster spots, he was a scholarship player from Marquette who was a 4 star recruit and is form Minnesota, thats a hell of a big difference from Bostick and Carter

[dpodoll68]

TM is not just some juco player we picked up to fill roster spots, he was a scholarship player from Marquette who was a 4 star recruit and is form Minnesota, thats a hell of a big difference from Bostick and Carter

Is he, or is he not, a JuCo recruit?

[Go Gophs eh?]

Is he, or is he not your average no name JuCo recruit?

[dpodoll68]

Is he, or is he not your average no name JuCo recruit?

Good job avoiding the question.

I didn't see anywhere in his post that he said "average no name" juco.

Please go ahead and point that out for me. K, thanks.

[underground629]

I take it you think almost all juco players aren't very good.


TM is not just some juco player we picked up to fill roster spots, he was a scholarship player from Marquette who was a 4 star recruit and is form Minnesota, thats a hell of a big difference from Bostick and Carter

[Go Gophs eh?]

Not saying that at all, However, how many JuCo players were 4 star recruits who already played a season at a big time school in the Big East, most JuCo players are either developing or had trouble with grades or attitude, Trevor had none of those traits

[anonymous]

dpodoll,

Just an FYI, Monson did take the team to the 2005 NCAA tournament.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Scotty Hopson who plays for Tennessee, supposed to be this big one and done guy chose Tennessee over UK. He was from Hopkinsville, KY, a Mcdonalds AA but he's been pretty sub par for the Vols in 2 years on the court. Tubby never recruited that kid and neither did Gillispie. I don't know if Hopson will make the NBA, he might but his chances are no better than the guy from Kentucky we took, Darius Miller.

There's not huge talent up your way, izzo has got detroit locked down, the northeastern kids end up in the big east. So you have to get Juco guys about every year and hope to land 1 or 2 out of state and the best your state can produce, that's about it. But sometimes even the local kids aren't a good fit as you guys are well aware of.

Chicago is about the only other city close enough and many of those kids end up at the more elite programs. How many kids from the south want to spend a winter in Minnesota? Apparently Sampson III and that's about it.

BOTH Tubby AND Gillispie recruited Hopson. But he wanted to be "shown the love" more.

Minnesota has >>> than Kentucky (in HS ranks). Not even close.

Southern players signed by Tubby at Minnesota are Sampson III from Atlanta and Hollins from Memphis.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Scotty Hopson who plays for Tennessee, supposed to be this big one and done guy chose Tennessee over UK. He was from Hopkinsville, KY, a Mcdonalds AA but he's been pretty sub par for the Vols in 2 years on the court. Tubby never recruited that kid and neither did Gillispie. I don't know if Hopson will make the NBA, he might but his chances are no better than the guy from Kentucky we took, Darius Miller.

There's not huge talent up your way, izzo has got detroit locked down, the northeastern kids end up in the big east. So you have to get Juco guys about every year and hope to land 1 or 2 out of state and the best your state can produce, that's about it. But sometimes even the local kids aren't a good fit as you guys are well aware of.

Chicago is about the only other city close enough and many of those kids end up at the more elite programs. How many kids from the south want to spend a winter in Minnesota? Apparently Sampson III and that's about it.

Joke for you.

What do you call a Kentuckian with 4 teeth?

Siamese twins.

[underground629]

True, but Trevor still counts as a juco player. Plenty of very good juco players out there.


Not saying that at all, However, how many JuCo players were 4 star recruits who already played a season at a big time school in the Big East, most JuCo players are either developing or had trouble with grades or attitude, Trevor had none of those traits

[60's Guy]

"5) Tubby is to blame for Royce White doing all the idiotic things he has done, and for Trevor Mbakwe being charged with a felony? He is responsible for Al Nolen being a dumba$$ and not keeping himself eligible? I mean, seriously? If you truly believe any of those things, you may as well stop following Gopher sports, because you will never be satisfied."

I think the point many people are missing is exactly that: Tubby is to blame for those things. How much of a crystal ball do you need to predict Royce and Trevor are going have issues? Their
high school careers were filled with issues. If a guy gets kicked out of a sports friendly high school for cheating, among his other red flags, are you still recruiting him? If a guy has been to what? 5 different high schools and colleges in 5 years and is constantly auditioning new homes in high school and college....you can't see issues coming? Is it a credit to win those recruiting battles? How many good coaches do you think passed on both?

It is 2010, you got double figures in people on the basketball staff and you can't keep a player elgible? That is negligence on the staff's part.

Switching to coaching: Tubby's quote: "Damian Johnson is the best defender I have ever coached" He didn't guard Evan Turner because?

Better than Monson is not the $2million threshold.

[Friend Of Tubby]

"5) Tubby is to blame for Royce White doing all the idiotic things he has done, and for Trevor Mbakwe being charged with a felony? He is responsible for Al Nolen being a dumba$$ and not keeping himself eligible? I mean, seriously? If you truly believe any of those things, you may as well stop following Gopher sports, because you will never be satisfied."

I think the point many people are missing is exactly that: Tubby is to blame for those things. How much of a crystal ball do you need to predict Royce and Trevor are going have issues? Their
high school careers were filled with issues. If a guy gets kicked out of a sports friendly high school for cheating, among his other red flags, are you still recruiting him? If a guy has been to what? 5 different high schools and colleges in 5 years and is constantly auditioning new homes in high school and college....you can't see issues coming? Is it a credit to win those recruiting battles? How many good coaches do you think passed on both?

It is 2010, you got double figures in people on the basketball staff and you can't keep a player elgible? That is negligence on the staff's part.

Switching to coaching: Tubby's quote: "Damian Johnson is the best defender I have ever coached" He didn't guard Evan Turner because?

Better than Monson is not the $2million threshold.

That's your FIRST post?

Any future posts will only get better because your first one is one of the dumbest I've ever read.

[scher215]

That's your FIRST post?

Any future posts will only get better because your first one is one of the dumbest I've ever read.

+1

[dpodoll68]

dpodoll,

Just an FYI, Monson did take the team to the 2005 NCAA tournament.

Yes, I'm aware. In fact, I vividly remember watching that Vincent Grier-led team lose to Iowa St. from the weight room at Columbia Heights, where I was substitute teaching for the PE teacher.

What's your point?

[minngg]

Should we expect Tubby to win a Big Ten title here? Is it a reasonable expectation?

[dpodoll68]

Should we expect Tubby to win a Big Ten title here? Is it a reasonable expectation?

Yes. Yes.

[ShowinGoldyLove]

Should we expect Tubby to win a Big Ten title here? Is it a reasonable expectation?
If it isn't, he's overpaid at $2.5 mil/year.

It was my belief and understanding that the reason we brought Tubby here and made him one of the top paid coaches in the country was for exactly the reason you stated; to win, or at least heavily compete for Big 10 titles.

If we aren't paying him for that, we can find plenty of quality coaches around the country that can get us 6-7th place finishes without spending 1/2 that money.

Granted, I don't think it could happen right away given the state of the program he took over. However, if he doesn't win or heavily compete for a Big 10 title in the next 3-4 years, I'll personally say that he isn't worth the money we're paying him.

Are those expectations too high?

For all of the stats that FoT runs off about Tubby being one of the top few coaches in the game today, with all of the conference titles he has won, and all of his career wins, asking for ONE Big 10 title, or at least heavily competing for it (2nd) in his first 7 years at the U should NOT be expecting too much.

Just to give you some persective, here are some of the top coaches in the Big 10, and their number of Big 10 titles (Tubby is paid more than all of them except Izzo, with more head coaching experience at the D1 level than anyone on the list as well, having 4 more years than Izzo):

Tom Izzo - 6 Big 10 titles, 4 titles in his first 6 years in the league
Bo Ryan - 3 Big 10 titles in his first 7 years in the league
Thad Matta - 3 Big 10 titles in his first 6 years in the league
Bruce Weber - 2 Big 10 titles in his first 3 years in the league
Matt Painter - 1 Big 10 title in his first 6 years in the league

If Tubby can't even win ONE Big 10 title in his first 7 years, given that track record above; I think we're seriously overpaying him.

[SelectionSunday]

I concur. If Tubby's here for another 4-7 years, I would expect a Big Ten championship of some sort (preferably of the regular-season variety) in his first 7 to 10 seasons. Not unrealistic at all.

[bga1]

I concur. If Tubby's here for another 4-7 years, I would expect a Big Ten championship of some sort (preferably of the regular-season variety) in his first 7 to 10 seasons. Not unrealistic at all.

This is reasonable. Except for me it needs to be a regular season title. To me the Big Ten tournament is far less significant except for it's impact on bubble teams and seeding. Most any team can get hot for 3-4 days.

[Friend Of Tubby]

If it isn't, he's overpaid at $2.5 mil/year.

It was my belief and understanding that the reason we brought Tubby here and made him one of the top paid coaches in the country was for exactly the reason you stated; to win, or at least heavily compete for Big 10 titles.

If we aren't paying him for that, we can find plenty of quality coaches around the country that can get us 6-7th place finishes without spending 1/2 that money.

Granted, I don't think it could happen right away given the state of the program he took over. However, if he doesn't win or heavily compete for a Big 10 title in the next 3-4 years, I'll personally say that he isn't worth the money we're paying him.

Are those expectations too high?

For all of the stats that FoT runs off about Tubby being one of the top few coaches in the game today, with all of the conference titles he has won, and all of his career wins, asking for ONE Big 10 title, or at least heavily competing for it (2nd) in his first 7 years at the U should NOT be expecting too much.

Just to give you some persective, here are some of the top coaches in the Big 10, and their number of Big 10 titles (Tubby is paid more than all of them except Izzo, with more head coaching experience at the D1 level than anyone on the list as well, having 4 more years than Izzo):

Tom Izzo - 6 Big 10 titles, 4 titles in his first 6 years in the league
Bo Ryan - 3 Big 10 titles in his first 7 years in the league
Thad Matta - 3 Big 10 titles in his first 6 years in the league
Bruce Weber - 2 Big 10 titles in his first 3 years in the league
Matt Painter - 1 Big 10 title in his first 6 years in the league

If Tubby can't even win ONE Big 10 title in his first 7 years, given that track record above; I think we're seriously overpaying him.

Absolutely. 25 W per season (average) the rest of his tenure. Big 10 title every 3-4 years. Tubby won 7 conference titles in his first 16 years as HC, averaged 24 W per season.

[underground629]

Don't bother posting again...


"5) Tubby is to blame for Royce White doing all the idiotic things he has done, and for Trevor Mbakwe being charged with a felony? He is responsible for Al Nolen being a dumba$$ and not keeping himself eligible? I mean, seriously? If you truly believe any of those things, you may as well stop following Gopher sports, because you will never be satisfied."

I think the point many people are missing is exactly that: Tubby is to blame for those things. How much of a crystal ball do you need to predict Royce and Trevor are going have issues? Their
high school careers were filled with issues. If a guy gets kicked out of a sports friendly high school for cheating, among his other red flags, are you still recruiting him? If a guy has been to what? 5 different high schools and colleges in 5 years and is constantly auditioning new homes in high school and college....you can't see issues coming? Is it a credit to win those recruiting battles? How many good coaches do you think passed on both?

It is 2010, you got double figures in people on the basketball staff and you can't keep a player elgible? That is negligence on the staff's part.

Switching to coaching: Tubby's quote: "Damian Johnson is the best defender I have ever coached" He didn't guard Evan Turner because?

Better than Monson is not the $2million threshold.

[Captain Puerto Rico]

I'd be very considered if I was one of ya'll.

[howeda7]

This thread may have expressed a valid concern initially, but it's quickly turned worthless. Geeze. And who cares how much Tubby makes? Really? I know the AD has to break even and there is a limit, but the basketball program still takes in far more then it pay out. Would you really be happier with Tubby if he made $1.5 million? Does Brewster get a free pass because he makes so little? Salary is a terrible basis for evaluating a college coach.

[GophersOnTheRise]

I'd be very considered if I was one of ya'll.

Fail.

[60's Guy]

"That's your FIRST post?

Any future posts will only get better because your first one is one of the dumbest I've ever read."

I do appreciate your confidence in me. Thank you. I have a question for you: Dumb, because you disagree? (which is not shocking considering your moniker) Or dumb because something I said was not accurate?

Your philosophy can be different, that is your opinion to which you are entitled, but the facts lead me to a different philosophy. We ask players to be accountable all the time. What about coaches who make poor character decisions in recruiting? When the gamble doesn't work and the program suffers, who is accountable for that? You seem to believe the player is and the coach is blameless?
I'm suggesting the behavior was pretty predictable, which puts the blame on the coach.

[Friend Of Tubby]

"That's your FIRST post?

Any future posts will only get better because your first one is one of the dumbest I've ever read."

I do appreciate your confidence in me. Thank you. I have a question for you: Dumb, because you disagree? (which is not shocking considering your moniker) Or dumb because something I said was not accurate?

Your philosophy can be different, that is your opinion to which you are entitled, but the facts lead me to a different philosophy. We ask players to be accountable all the time. What about coaches who make poor character decisions in recruiting? When the gamble doesn't work and the program suffers, who is accountable for that? You seem to believe the player is and the coach is blameless?
I'm suggesting the behavior was pretty predictable, which puts the blame on the coach.

The latter. Dumb because your post is inaccurate, as others have agreed (above).

Absolutely Royce White is utterly accountable for his actions.

[scher215]

The latter. Dumb because your post is inaccurate, as others have agreed (above).

Absolutely Royce White is utterly accountable for his actions.

IMO, Bruce Pearl is the biggest thug in college basketball. I mean, misdemeanor drug and gun charges for the man? It is shocking he is still a college basketball coach. I thought the NCAA expected better.

(Sarcasm)

[minngg]

This thread may have expressed a valid concern initially, but it's quickly turned worthless. Geeze. And who cares how much Tubby makes? Really? I know the AD has to break even and there is a limit, but the basketball program still takes in far more then it pay out. Would you really be happier with Tubby if he made $1.5 million? Does Brewster get a free pass because he makes so little? Salary is a terrible basis for evaluating a college coach.

Salary is a factor in reviewing a coach. So is experience (usually comes with salary). In the coaching market you get what you pay for usually. Or at least you should. Iowa pays Ferentz top dollar and does not expect the same results as MN who pays Brewster much less. If you get paid like Joe Mauer, the expectations are raised. It comes with the territory.

[Gopherhurrin]

White was always damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[underground629]

This is completely unrelated but I thought people might be interested in reading about DJ playing pro ball in Japan.

http://www.dailycomet.com/article/20100802/ARTICLES/100809960/1032?p=1&tc=pg

[Gopherhurrin]

I am concerned about actual choices in life. What choices do we have now? Coach Smith is bought out to get whom? Who will want this job if he is fired? Coach Smith is our guy now and he has to fail in order to be in play. Who sees a real choice? I do not.

[The Truth]

Here's a tidbit: Tubby's trying to get in on a Five Star Prospect from the high school of one of his former players. This kid's already got multiple offers from Big Ten schools BTW.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Here's a tidbit: Tubby's trying to get in on a Five Star Prospect from the high school of one of his former players. This kid's already got multiple offers from Big Ten schools BTW.

Chane Behanan of Bowling Green KY - Josh Carrier played for Tubby and BGHS. Behanan is originally from Cincinnati OH where Tubby has good connections, too.

[fan of Ray Williams]

Here's a tidbit: Tubby's trying to get in on a Five Star Prospect from the high school of one of his former players. This kid's already got multiple offers from Big Ten schools BTW.

Why the hush hush? Why can't you just say the kids name? Is it a big secret or something?

[60's Guy]

Here's a tidbit: Tubby's trying to get in on a Five Star Prospect from the high school of one of his former players. This kid's already got multiple offers from Big Ten schools BTW.

"Tubby's trying to get in on a Five Star Prospect from the high school of one of his former players."
What? Tubby just found about him? What? The former player doesn't like Tubby? "Trying to get in" Why wouldn't Tubby be first in line? versus "already got multiple offers" and now Tubby is coming in late?

I know, I know...Tubby does not make mistakes in judgment or strategy.

[Friend Of Tubby]

Why the hush hush? Why can't you just say the kids name? Is it a big secret or something?

Chane Behanan. See above.

[uagain]

"Tubby's trying to get in on a Five Star Prospect (who's) already got multiple offers from Big Ten schools..."

Same story: late to evaluate, late to build relationships with recruits, late to offer.

[Gopher Warrior]

In the case of Behanan, there are a million schools after him... relative to other schools, MN might be a little 'later' than others, but the kid has said he isn't going to commit anytime soon. (by "commit", I mean "commit again")

He wants to wait until late February... when his brother gets out of jail.

But, has also said he may wait until April. The wait for spring may be to our favor... probably not on this one, though.

[underground629]

Well, I hope we aren't saving a spot super late again for a player like this.

[Friend Of Tubby]

"Tubby's trying to get in on a Five Star Prospect (who's) already got multiple offers from Big Ten schools..."

Same story: late to evaluate, late to build relationships with recruits, late to offer.

He (Behanan) was committed to Cincy until 2009. Tubby has been recruiting him for a while but just failed to tell YOU about it. I've heard this for most of 2010. How come you didn't?

[MinneMike]

Far too much hand-wringing on this post, folks. Time to support coach, not prematurely and unreasonably cast dispersions. We all want a successful Gopher program. Tubby is holding up his end of the bargain.

[MN1nAZ]

Far too much hand-wringing on this post, folks. Time to support coach, not prematurely and unreasonably cast dispersions. We all want a successful Gopher program. Tubby is holding up his end of the bargain.

Right On MM!! When I get to be as successful a D-1 coach as Tubby, then I can criticize and condescend to him.