Tubby vs Williams

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DLguy

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I have a question. How is this any different then the following scenario. Lets say I have a felony on my record. I apply for a job and dont disclose criminal history. I go into an interview, get offered a job and accept. Then during my background check, they find out I have a felony on my record and will not hire me. Isnt this the same type of thing? He was a part of a group who committed infractions at THIS school that caused THIS school to lose a ton (wins, money, reputation). If Jimmy Williams did not disclose this information to Tubby in the interview, and Tubby found out later. Then isnt that Jimmy Williams' fault for not providing information that would be very valuable to the U hiring him?
 

You have a very logical point. And it makes sense in our minds, but how will/does/would it stand up in a court of law? I don't know.
 

I'm sure this is the type of argument Tubby and the U are making, and I'm sure Williams would respond that he reasonably assumed the U was fully aware of his record at the U and considered it before offering him the job.


I would guess that the U is going to win this case, if for no other reason than it's a "he said, she said" type of scenario and Williams bears the burden of proof. The jury simply will conclude that he can't prove what happened. That said, I don't think the U is really "vindicated" by winning. My opinion of the athletic dept administrators continues to decline.
 

I must admit, I'm surprised Tubby says he didn't know about Jimmy's history at the U. If he didn't, he should have. Fair or not, anyone who worked under Musselman should raise an immediate red flag, especially as it pertains to University of Minnesota basketball. Maturi absolutely did the right thing putting the kibosh to the hire.

Too bad it's come to this. Both guys seem like pretty good men, but neither will come out of this looking good. Bottom line is you don't leave your current job without having the other job in writing. Pretty simple.
 

I also dont understand why people are bashing the athletic department and Maturi so much for this. Maturi did exactly what he should have. When he found out that Williams had previous infractions at the U, he met with Tubby and said it wasnt a good idea to hire him. I just dont get why everyone jumps at Maturi for this. What did he actually do wrong?
 


In the health care profession, we always ran a criminal background check before offering a position to a new hire. I am guessing that is a standard practice with most business's.
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
In the health care profession, we always ran a criminal background check before offering a position to a new hire. I am guessing that is a standard practice with most business's.
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I'm fairly certain that NCAA recruiting violations don't show up on one's criminal record.
 

SelectionSunday said:
I must admit, I'm surprised Tubby says he didn't know about Jimmy's history at the U. If he didn't, he should have. Fair or not, anyone who worked under Musselman should raise an immediate red flag, especially as it pertains to University of Minnesota basketball. Maturi absolutely did the right thing putting the kibosh to the hire.

Too bad it's come to this. Both guys seem like pretty good men, but neither will come out of this looking good. Bottom line is you don't leave your current job without having the other job in writing. Pretty simple.
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There's no doubt that had this happened anytime later, the onus would have been on Tubby to know Williams history. In fairness to Tubby he was in about his second week on the job at the time, so I think he can be forgiven for not knowing. The bigger question is why did it take the compliance officer red-flagging the hire for Maturi to know Williams history? From things I've read, Maturi originally did not object and even instructed an assistant to begin making his arrangements before later stopping the hire. Shouldn't Maturi have put the kibosh on this the instant the name came out of Tubby's mouth?
 

howeda7 said:
The bigger question is why did it take the compliance officer red-flagging the hire for Maturi to know Williams history?
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So Maturi is supposed to know the intricate details and complicit parties for every violation that has ever occurred at the University of Minnesota? Isn't that compliance's job?

What's next - are you going to blame Maturi for global warming and the national debt?

I understand that you literally hate the fact that the man exists, but geez - lay off a little.
 



Tubby implied in court today that Williams had an obligation to tell him all of the facts:

Under cross-examination Tuesday from the lawyer for would-be assistant coach Jimmy Williams, University of Minnesota basketball coach Tubby Smith showed a flash of temper when asked whether he had a duty to people who rely on what he says.

"They have an obligation to me, to give me the full facts. That is what he had an obligation to do," Smith said, pointing at Williams.

Williams claims Smith hired him to be an assistant in a 14-minute phone conversation on the evening of April 2, 2007. Smith said the deal was never final.

Williams wasn't hired after Athletic Director Joel Maturi and Smith learned of prior NCAA violations during Williams' tenure under former Gophers coaches Bill Musselman and Jim Dutcher in the 1970s and 1980s.

A Hennepin County trial in his lawsuit against Smith and the university entered its eighth day with the head coach again on the stand under questioning from Williams' lawyer Donald Chance Mark Jr.

Mark pressed Smith, "You're telling the jury you didn't have the full facts?"

Smith said, "That's exactly right."

http://www.startribune.com/local/94...iaK7DUqEiaDUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aU7DYaGEP7vDEh7P:DiUs

Go Gophers!!
 

dpodoll68 said:
So Maturi is supposed to know the intricate details and complicit parties for every violation that has ever occurred at the University of Minnesota? Isn't that compliance's job?

What's next - are you going to blame Maturi for global warming and the national debt?

I understand that you literally hate the fact that the man exists, but geez - lay off a little.
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Give me a break. First I don't hate the man. I'm not his biggest fan, but you're going way over-board. Second, how hard is it to know the names of the handful of Gopher basketball coaches who were involved in the program's infractions? We're not talking about hundreds or even double-digits. A lot of people on this board probably could have told you he was involved as soon as they heard his name. Why is it too much to expect the athletic director to know the same information?

Heck, SS was saying Tubby should have known. If it's fair to expect Tubby to know about this 2 weeks onto the job, it's reasonable expect the AD who's been there many years to know it as well. Of course it's compliance's job too. If Ron Jirsa had some violations UGA, that would be compliance's job and clearly it's not reasonable that Maturi should know that. But Williams violations occured at the very institutuion he's now in charge of, so yes, he should have known enough to say no the minute his name was brought up. It may not make any difference in the end. But swifter action may have prevented this whole mess.
 

Slovut then asked Smith, "Did you ever offer a job to Jimmy Williams?" Smith glared at Williams and said, "No, I did not."

Go Gophers!!
 

howeda7 said:
Give me a break. First I don't hate the man. I'm not his biggest fan, but you're going way over-board.
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Not his biggest fan? A large majority of your posts, especially of recent vintage, are either mocking him outright or making none-too-subtle jabs at his perceived incompetence. You talk about it more than Wren talked about "Prexy B".

howeda7 said:
Second, how hard is it to know the names of the handful of Gopher basketball coaches who were involved in the program's infractions? We're not talking about hundreds or even double-digits.
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Call me crazy, but I don't expect people in authority to have encyclopedic knowledge of the history of Gopher athletics. It's not important that he knows the information - it's important that he knows where to get it, and that he consults said source. He absolutely did his due diligence here - so what the hell is the problem?

howeda7 said:
A lot of people on this board probably could have told you he was involved as soon as they heard his name. Why is it too much to expect the athletic director to know the same information?
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Yes, and most of those same people were Gophers fans during the scandal, and could probably give far more detail about it than most would care to know. Joel Maturi was coaching high school sports in Wisconsin at that time, and was presumably not a Gophers fan. Why on earth would he know all the intricate details?

howeda7 said:
Heck, SS was saying Tubby should have known. If it's fair to expect Tubby to know about this 2 weeks onto the job
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I agree 100% with you that it is completely unreasonable for Tubby to have known about this. I have never stated otherwise, here or elsewhere. The question is, why was Williams hiding the truth? I can't believe he had the cajones to think that someone with full knowledge of the situation would actually hire him back to the same school where he committed major violations. Does he think that Tubby is that dirty? The fact that he didn't disclose this during their telephone conversation is enough evidence for me to say that the lawsuit has absolutely zero merit.

howeda7 said:
But Williams violations occured at the very institutuion he's now in charge of, so yes, he should have known enough to say no the minute his name was brought up. It may not make any difference in the end. But swifter action may have prevented this whole mess.
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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Williams called Sutton to resign within hours of speaking with Tubby, before Maturi even knew that the two of them had talked. So how was he supposed to prevent that? Telepathy?
 



Not his biggest fan? A large majority of your posts, especially of recent vintage, are either mocking him outright or making none-too-subtle jabs at his perceived incompetence. You talk about it more than Wren talked about "Prexy B".
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I think that is a rather large exageration. You seem to be fixated on anything I say with regards to Maturi. I have even refrained from using the 'd' word at your request. And comparing me to Loon? Jeeze that's just downright offensive.


Call me crazy, but I don't expect people in authority to have encyclopedic knowledge of the history of Gopher athletics. It's not important that he knows the information - it's important that he knows where to get it, and that he consults said source. He absolutely did his due diligence here - so what the hell is the problem?

Joel Maturi was coaching high school sports in Wisconsin at that time, and was presumably not a Gophers fan. Why on earth would he know all the intricate details?
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You have a point, but I don't think knowing the details about someone who was an assistant for many years here, and over multiple coaching staffs and who was the interim head coach for a period is really asking too much. It certainly doesn't require 'encyclopedic knowledge' as you say.

Maturi is hardly the main culprit in this particular case, and frankly I find it hard to see how Williams wins. And in the end (as is often the case) he made the right call. But, as is also often the case, had he made it a bit quicker, things might have turned out better.
 

DLguy said:
I have a question. How is this any different then the following scenario. Lets say I have a felony on my record. I apply for a job and dont disclose criminal history. I go into an interview, get offered a job and accept. Then during my background check, they find out I have a felony on my record and will not hire me. Isnt this the same type of thing? He was a part of a group who committed infractions at THIS school that caused THIS school to lose a ton (wins, money, reputation). If Jimmy Williams did not disclose this information to Tubby in the interview, and Tubby found out later. Then isnt that Jimmy Williams' fault for not providing information that would be very valuable to the U hiring him?
Click to expand...

It could be different in a couple of ways. First, because it is not always practical for an employer to conduct background checks prior to identifying the candidate it wants to pursue, it is not uncommon for a conditional job offer to be made. For example, I had a job offer conveyed to me that was conditioned on passing a drug test. I had agreed on a start date, salary, benefits and other terms of employment, but it was clear that, if I failed the drug test, the offer would be rescinded. (I passed!) As I understand it, Jimmy is saying the job offer here wasn’t contingent on anything so it was a contract that should be enforceable.

Second, when the employer asks a legitimate question, the applicant has an obligation to tell the truth. For example, an employer interviewing a licensed professional from out-of-state may ask in the interview whether the applicant has ever been subject to disciplinary action regarding his license. The applicant says “no” and is told he’ll start next week. The employer then finds out that the applicant lied and has, in fact, had his license suspended in another jurisdiction for improper conduct on two occasions. The employer then rescinds the job offer. The mere fact that there was a job offered and accepted does not preclude the employer from refusing to go through with the hire and the applicant would be unlikely to have a viable cause of action. Again, from what I have heard about this case, it doesn’t seem that Tubby directly asked Jimmy about past violations and is instead taking the position that Jimmy should have volunteered the information. Even if he didn’t ask about violations directly, Tubby may have asked Jimmy about his prior experiences at Minnesota. Jimmy’s response to such a question would go a long way toward convincing a jury whether he was being truthful or evasive.
 

I find it very reasonable that Tubby did not know about the infractions by Williams. Williams was an assistant and Tubby's attention at that time was in the Southeast. Newspapers in the Southeast hardly acknowledge there is a big ten even though some of the schools have scheduled Indiana. I'll apologize for what some may think of that statement, but it's true. Sorry. Maybe if Ohio State ever beats an SEC team in football there might be some Big Ten coverage.
 

This is my understanding (admittedly faulty memory) of the Jimmy Williams era at U of M:
Please correct my dates if anyone has a better memory and/or wants to look it up.

circa 1972 (Latin always adds a little credibility) Musselman hires Williams as assistant coach

C. 1977 NCAA uncovers recruiting violations and Williams among others is named.

c. 1978 Mussleman leaves for ABA (I think)

1978 Dutcher named coach and he and the University hires Williams as assistant and I believe they have full knowledge of Williams NCAA violations and hires him anyway.

Williams serves as assistant for 7 or 8 years until the Madison incident when the U suspends several players and Dutcher resigns in opposition to the University's position and Williams is named head coach by the UNIVERSITY - again with full knowledge of all his NCAA transgressions. All parties eventually cleared of all charges in Madison incident IIRC.

I don't believe Williams is charged with any NCAA violations during the Dutcher reign.

So Williams has served as assistant for several years and as Head coach for several games after Dutcher resigns until the following year when Haskins is named head coach. Williams moves on to other assistant coaching positions away from the U.

I believe Williams was foolish to resign his job before he had it in writing but I don't see a great responsibility on his part to tell Tubby about his NCAA violations when he has already served several years as assistant coach and a few games as Head Coach with the full knowledge of the University for his PRIOR NCAA transgressions.

JMP - just my perspective.

PS - Jimmy once got me a few tickets behind the Gopher bench to a Gopher game at the Horizon a long time ago.
 

BleedGopher said:
Tubby implied in court today that Williams had an obligation to tell him all of the facts:

Under cross-examination Tuesday from the lawyer for would-be assistant coach Jimmy Williams, University of Minnesota basketball coach Tubby Smith showed a flash of temper when asked whether he had a duty to people who rely on what he says.

"They have an obligation to me, to give me the full facts. That is what he had an obligation to do," Smith said, pointing at Williams.

Williams claims Smith hired him to be an assistant in a 14-minute phone conversation on the evening of April 2, 2007. Smith said the deal was never final.

Williams wasn't hired after Athletic Director Joel Maturi and Smith learned of prior NCAA violations during Williams' tenure under former Gophers coaches Bill Musselman and Jim Dutcher in the 1970s and 1980s.

A Hennepin County trial in his lawsuit against Smith and the university entered its eighth day with the head coach again on the stand under questioning from Williams' lawyer Donald Chance Mark Jr.

Mark pressed Smith, "You're telling the jury you didn't have the full facts?"

Smith said, "That's exactly right."

http://www.startribune.com/local/94...iaK7DUqEiaDUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aU7DYaGEP7vDEh7P:DiUs

Go Gophers!!
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Exactly what sort of due diligence did Tubby do on Williams? It wouldn't take much research to find out about the infractions. And he was planning to hire this guy, who he apparently did not know very well? And do so without doing any sort of digging on him?

I'm fine with the defense that Williams hadn't signed any official papers, so that's on him. But Tubby's Babe of the Woods routine is embarrassing. Tubby didn't do the background work and that's Williams' fault? Give me a freaking break.
 

rrjackIII said:
This is my understanding (admittedly faulty memory) of the Jimmy Williams era at U of M:
Please correct my dates if anyone has a better memory and/or wants to look it up.

circa 1972 (Latin always adds a little credibility) Musselman hires Williams as assistant coach

C. 1977 NCAA uncovers recruiting violations and Williams among others is named.

c. 1978 Mussleman leaves for ABA (I think)

1978 Dutcher named coach and he and the University hires Williams as assistant and I believe they have full knowledge of Williams NCAA violations and hires him anyway.

Williams serves as assistant for 7 or 8 years until the Madison incident when the U suspends several players and Dutcher resigns in opposition to the University's position and Williams is named head coach by the UNIVERSITY - again with full knowledge of all his NCAA transgressions. All parties eventually cleared of all charges in Madison incident IIRC.

I don't believe Williams is charged with any NCAA violations during the Dutcher reign.

So Williams has served as assistant for several years and as Head coach for several games after Dutcher resigns until the following year when Haskins is named head coach. Williams moves on to other assistant coaching positions away from the U.

I believe Williams was foolish to resign his job before he had it in writing but I don't see a great responsibility on his part to tell Tubby about his NCAA violations when he has already served several years as assistant coach and a few games as Head Coach with the full knowledge of the University for his PRIOR NCAA transgressions.

JMP - just my perspective.

PS - Jimmy once got me a few tickets behind the Gopher bench to a Gopher game at the Horizon a long time ago.
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I believe this is the correct story of Williams tenure at the U as well. I don't agree that Williams was foolish to resign his job before he had the job in writing. The only reason I disagree with you on that is I don't know how these assistant jobs usually work. I personally trust that Williams has moved around enough in the past 20 years that he knew when he had landed a job and when he had not. I also disagree with Selection Sunday that Maturi was right to put the "kibosh" on the hire. Tubby wasn't hiring Todd Bozeman and Mr.Williams track record for 30 years of coaching is pretty clean.
 

Mr. Williams track record is pretty clean..........

NOT!!

He was the bag man for two separate Gopher basketball regimes. (Muss/Dutch)

While it's true he was serving at the pleasure of his master's (Muss/Dutch) he had numerous recruitng violations chalked up to his own name.

He did enjoy his time here in Minnesota and wanted to come back. He knew his time in Okie (Suttton's day were numbered) was about up, and when Tubby was interested, JR couldn't contain his enthusiasm.

He confused what he wanted to happen, with the actual process, and when Maturi said it wasn't going to happen, he flipped out.

He knew that 60-something assistant coaches are not in demand and this was his last chance at a decent paying job in a place he would want to be.

He deserves no more than the one year's pay that was offered.
 


leftyslefty said:
NOT!!

He was the bag man for two separate Gopher basketball regimes. (Muss/Dutch)

While it's true he was serving at the pleasure of his master's (Muss/Dutch) he had numerous recruitng violations chalked up to his own name.

He did enjoy his time here in Minnesota and wanted to come back. He knew his time in Okie (Suttton's day were numbered) was about up, and when Tubby was interested, JR couldn't contain his enthusiasm.

He confused what he wanted to happen, with the actual process, and when Maturi said it wasn't going to happen, he flipped out.

He knew that 60-something assistant coaches are not in demand and this was his last chance at a decent paying job in a place he would want to be.

He deserves no more than the one year's pay that was offered.
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He was named head coach after the 2nd "incident" and his name hasn't come up since then. At worst, he committed recruiting violations 30 years ago. I think his record is pretty clean for a guy who's been the top recruiting assistant at a number of high major schools. He also just won his judgment. Gophers would have been better off with him on staff.
 

He was named.......

"interim," head coach....because it was mid-season, and he was the senior assistant.

The other full time assistant on the staff was Flip Saunders............he went in to prove he was a pretty good coach. Jimmy went on to obscurity because that's the kind of coaching talent he has.

He would not have helped this program.

He had his chance. He blew it. He knows it. He's bitter.

He won his judgement. So did O.J. It doesn't mean it was the right call.
 

leftyslefty said:
"interim," head coach....because it was mid-season, and he was the senior assistant.

The other full time assistant on the staff was Flip Saunders............he went in to prove he was a pretty good coach. Jimmy went on to obscurity because that's the kind of coaching talent he has.

He would not have helped this program.

He had his chance. He blew it. He knows it. He's bitter.

He won his judgement. So did O.J. It doesn't mean it was the right call.
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Really, because he has had some pretty decent coaching positions and been hired or desired by some pretty successful coaches over the years. Remember Tubby approached him about the job not the other way around, so Tubby obviously thought highly of him as did one of the most successful coaches of all time(Eddie Sutton). Flip who you stated yourself was a good coach also hired Jimmy Williams to his staff when he was the Timberwolves coach as well.
 

In the future, coaches should tell potential employees 1) that they would like to hire them, but they have to run it past the AD first, and 2) don't resign yet. And get that documented.
 

The Gopher basketball program this year has been the Perfect Frickin' Storm. This site used to be the first thing I looked at after I signed in ... several times each day for the last 15 years. Recently though I often go several days without checking it.

I'm bummed out and the Tubby vs Williams fiasco is just another bump. Personally I think the U did hose over Williams and rightfully lost the suit. Maturi hasn't done many things right except hire Tubby in the first place, and the way things are going I wouldn't blame Tubby for getting the hell out of Minneapolis while he still has his sanity.
 

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